Matt Bottrill: Cycling and Triathlon Performance Coach
Alright. Welcome to another episode of the Endurance Matters podcast. I am honored today to have my buddy in the studio, Matt Botro. Matt, welcome to the show.
Matt Bottrill:Oh, Justin, it's a pleasure. It's been a long time catching up. Yeah. It's been great to follow your journey from, you know, like the days of coaching you to seeing how you progressed, it's amazing. You know, like, you've grown, mate.
Matt Bottrill:It's, it's pretty awesome.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. For those that don't know Matt, Matt is a cycling coach, triathlon coach, bike fitting specialist, aerodynamic guru, all in all, good dude with a ton of knowledge. So I'm really excited to get in today, into your mind and understand, you know, all of the knowledge that you have. So I start off the podcast with an icebreaker hard hitting question here.
Justin Metzler:What is harder? Working a full day as a postman or doing a five hour ride with one of your professional athletes that you coach?
Matt Bottrill:I think it's definitely riding with with with professional athletes. Yeah. I do miss the days at the post office, but yeah. Especially if you go out with somebody like Matt Hanson, like, when that dude's on the front half wheeling you, then yeah. There's only one thing you can do is come back and sleep after it.
Matt Bottrill:So and especially when like when we come out to Boulder, obviously, training the altitude, then that really takes it out of you. So, yeah, it's we you know, we've been out here for nearly two weeks now, and, yeah, each day you you just collapse into bed.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Are you feeling the altitude just doing some training here?
Matt Bottrill:Yeah. It generally takes me about like, after the sixth day, then it it starts to kick in really. I I generally find, you know, once you get above, like, 8,000 feet, that's when you really feel it. So I I'm in preparation for Leadville. I'm back out here in July.
Matt Bottrill:It's always been like a dream of mine to do Leadville 100. So I'm gonna be doing that. So I'm just out here getting plenty of miles in, getting some prep, catching up with people that I've not seen for quite a while. So, yeah, I I love it. I love it out here.
Matt Bottrill:You know, like Boulder, it's like home from home now. There's so many good people that yeah. And I'll I'll hopefully carry on, keep coming out, you know, each year.
Justin Metzler:Yep. You've been coming out here for probably what, four or five years now?
Matt Bottrill:Maybe Yeah. The first time I came out, it was at 2016. I was actually coaching Tim Don, and it was we we were in prep for Kona. It obviously broke an Ironman world record. Is that 2017?
Matt Bottrill:And, yeah, it just started from there, really. And I just fell in love with the place. I just couldn't believe, you know, like the professionalism of it. And at the time, like there was like Erin's Gym. I just loved the atmosphere in there, you know, like it wasn't like, you know, like anything I take, but you could just sense like this, you know, like like great people, you know, like you could be doing a run on a treadmill and there was like this whole boy that had been to the Olympics.
Matt Bottrill:So, you know, that that that was it for me. And then, you know, like you start riding in the mountains and and that's what I love. I love being in in the mountains away from everything. And yeah. And I've I've come back ever since anytime that I haven't been here when COVID was on.
Matt Bottrill:So yeah. And that will continue.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Epic place for training. Well, wanna rewind a little bit. Why don't you start off by telling me, like how you got into cycling? Tell me a little bit about your upbringing and yeah, maybe just start there.
Matt Bottrill:Yeah. So for me, it's like I've been cycling from the age of 12. I was basically I proactive at school. I had way too much energy. I wasn't the most academic, and I started to get into a lot of trouble, wanging around with like the wrong people.
Matt Bottrill:And I my granddad just said to me, look, you know, like, you've you've got to change the way that you're doing things. I'm gonna take you to the cycle touring club. And I just went out on my bike, and I did 50 miles straight off. And I could keep up. And I thought, man, why am I?
Matt Bottrill:I love this. You know, I've got freedom. And it it just started from there. And I'd say I got pretty good pretty quick. And within, like, two years, you know, I go out with all these old guys, and I started doing their editing because I was, you know, like, always off wheeling.
Matt Bottrill:I said, look, you need to go and race now. So like most people in The UK, I entered, like, a 10 mile time trial. That's that's the big thing in, like, The UK. And I did twenty four minutes. And for most people, you know, like, trying to get below 30 is pretty good.
Matt Bottrill:Was like, it didn't mean mean anything. And then it just progressed from there. Then I wanted to be the, you know, I wanted to be national champion and everything just evolved really. So it's it's been a good journey, you know, like I've I'm 48 now, so I've been in the sport a long time. I've managed to meet a lot of great people and I've had, you know, a lot of success from, you know, from myself, but then I've able to help a lot of other people on their journey, and that's that's what I love, you know, like just just just helping and supporting people.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Was the goal right away to be a professional cyclist? Were you planning to take it really seriously, or what was the vision when you first got into it?
Matt Bottrill:Initially, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. But I kind of once I got into it, I wanted to be the best at it because if you like, I've I was an academic at school, so I just thought, right, I can be really good at this. And then, like most people, it was I wanted to represent my country, which I managed to do as a junior. I went to the world championships. And then in The UK, lottery funding started to kick in.
Matt Bottrill:So and I wanted to be part of that. And and I managed to get like, I was one of the first people to get lottery funding. I was part of this performance program with people like Bradley Wiggins Sure. Charlie Wigailias that people might know. But I I kind of realized pretty soon that I was gonna be a good domestic professional, but I was never gonna make it to world tour.
Matt Bottrill:And I actually missed being at home quite a bit because that's the thing, like, back in the day, like, you wouldn't go and live in The UK, you had to go abroad. You know, you're gonna live in France or Belgium, and then you you commute to like the races. And I I just miss them too much, you know. I realized I was gonna be a domestique, not a I wasn't gonna be a winner, and I wanted to be a winner. And I realized that if I came back to The UK, that's where where I'd succeed and and basically just stayed there and managed to win the national championships in The UK realistically.
Matt Bottrill:Yep. So, yeah, it's been a good journey.
Justin Metzler:And when you had that realization, was that when you realized that, okay, I'm maybe not gonna be a professional cyclist or this is gonna be my livelihood. I have to find a real job. Is that where the postman profession came in?
Matt Bottrill:Well, initially, I left school and I was a plumber. And then I I realized I did my apprenticeship, which was four years long. And I realized that this lottery funding was gonna kick in. So in order to do that, I left I left being a plumber. I was on actually good money at that time.
Matt Bottrill:And I I just did a part time job being a postman, and I did that for six months. And then, obviously, I, you know, as a part time athlete, I could train and then my performances just started to come, which then allowed me to ride the bike full time. For two years, I took two years out of work, and the post office basically left my job open. And I I basically went back to the post office when I realized I wasn't gonna make it because he he gave me the lifestyle. Like, my hours used to be like thirty in the morning till like midday.
Matt Bottrill:And so you just imagine I've got then all the afternoon to train and it yeah. It allowed me that that freedom, really.
Justin Metzler:What was that realization like when you found out or said to yourself, I'm not gonna make it as a professional athlete, and I do have to go get this real job to make the dream sort of sustainable here? Was that a was that a bummer, or did you sort of embrace that?
Matt Bottrill:No. I just embraced it. I was ready for it. Do you know what I mean? I I could just see that I wasn't gonna be I I was gonna be good.
Matt Bottrill:You know, I could I know I realized I could do, like in in the peak of my career, I could still do, 400 for an hour Mhmm. Which is pretty it's pretty good, but a world tour level Yeah. It's not it's not good enough. But it mean it did mean that I could win a lot of races back home, which, you know, that was the journey set. But I don't I really like and I luckily now, yes, I did have a lot of failings to get the success.
Matt Bottrill:It took me a long time to get to the top of the sport in The UK. But I think my journey was to be where I am today, you know, from from, you know, 2014, it it was to coach people and support them on their journeys. Because I I made so many mistakes to get to where I wanted to be, and it was only meeting the right people, like getting the right coach, the the right person for aerodynamics that allow me to succeed. Then I had all this information and I wanted to be able to pass it on to other people, really.
Justin Metzler:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, very interesting. I definitely want to get into sort of that avenue of you getting into bike fitting and getting into coaching. First, I want to figure out the time trial seems to be something that you personally had a lot of success in. Yep.
Justin Metzler:And why do you think that you gravitated a lot towards the time trial? And why do you feel like that's maybe an area of specialty for you?
Matt Bottrill:It was just the well, obviously, had quite a I had a big engine, so that that helped. And it was just that the control of being able to support, you know, supply a lot of power for a relatively big duration, really. And and for me, eventually, I I loved all the tech side to it, you know, like all this technology, understanding it all. Because a lot of the stuff that people are seeing today, we innovated that, you know, like the the camelback down the chest with back in 2012, the the aero pads that you're seeing, the, you know, all these fancy poles. We we were like the innovators, you know, myself and like Simon Smart from Drug two Zero.
Matt Bottrill:And I I just wanted to be the best. You just got if you like, when you you've got control of everything, it's just it's incredible. You're just riding along at, thirty, thirty five miles an hour all the time, and that speed that's what I was addicted to, the speed. Yeah. And the clock, you know, like, it's so controllable.
Matt Bottrill:It's like, you know, like an Ironman realistically. You're racing against time, aren't you? You know, like, yes, you get a place in, but ultimately, it's just time that you're trying to beat, and that's what I was addicted to. I wanted to get faster and faster and faster. And and having all this tech that we were able to access, that's what I was addicted to.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Were you focusing a little bit more I guess when you first got into it, I wanna talk a little bit about the bike fitting versus the coaching. Were you getting into bike fitting before you were getting into coaching or were those two things sort of symbiotic?
Matt Bottrill:It was kind of yeah. My journey was I was yeah. It was more about I I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I was kind of I reached the, you know, the pinnacle of the sport in The UK, and I kind of realized that I needed to make more money. Like, back in the day, a postman was I was on £20,000.
Matt Bottrill:Mhmm. So I had three children. It's not gonna supply or support them. So I thought, right, maybe coaching's an avenue that I could take. And and all that happened to me one day was I used to write these articles for Giant.
Matt Bottrill:I've always been sponsored by, you know, Giant for like fifteen years now. And there's a guy called Tim O'Brien who he was an Ironman athlete.
Justin Metzler:Sure. I know Tim O.
Matt Bottrill:Yeah. And he he reached out to me just going, well, I've read your articles. Would you consider coaching me? I'm not sure I'm ready to be a coach yet, but send me your training over. I'll have a look at it.
Matt Bottrill:And I just thought, you know, like this guy, he doesn't do intervals. He he just does, high volume. And then he he said he wanted to win this Ironman Roth. I didn't really know what Roth was. And I I just thought, right.
Matt Bottrill:Okay. Let's look at the demands of Roth. Let's look at you, you know, like your bike position. And I I thought I just thought, well, if you, you know, like you go through this process of training and, you know, adapt into position on like the bike, then ultimately, you can you can save energy and you're gonna go a lot faster. And ultimately, what was happening to Theo, he was he was always blowing up in the last 10 k of the the run.
Matt Bottrill:So ultimately, the goal was to save energy on the bike, and that's what I was able to do with him. And I, you know, I just trained him for the demands of the event. I'll be honest, I didn't even really know what I was doing with the training. I just kind of winged it, but it seemed to work. And I just thought, wow, there must be something in this.
Matt Bottrill:And I started coaching a few friends. They started winning races. And I thought, wow, I'm onto I'm onto a, yeah, a formula here. So it was kind of like I engaged the two really. And initially, I I understood aerodynamics, but I didn't now understand like biomechanics or I didn't understand the fitted, you know, like the the adaptation that you were getting from the training.
Matt Bottrill:I kind of and I'm not sure I understand that now. Do know a of my, you know, the sensations and the feelings that I've got is just being out in the field working with a lot of different people, and trying to create like this formula. Sure. Like, I think there's, you know, there's some amazing coaches out there, amazing aerodynamicists that understand like all that information where I'm just I'm just visual. I I learn visually and I I just listen to people, and it it seems to work.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Sure. That's totally that's definitely fair, and that's actually refreshing to hear an environment and in a in a world where everyone is so calculated and so by the textbook, I think that there's like coaching is an art, you know, that's an art form. I think that there's there's value in just someone who's actually taking the time to listen and review and and hear what athletes have to say. Sponsor of today's episode, Precision Fuel and Hydration.
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Justin Metzler:So if you wanna try that for yourself, head on over to pfnh.com and use code big mets twenty twenty five for 15% off. I'm curious to hear about when you were reaching the top of the sport in The UK. And when you won your national title there, were you also working at the time or was that in that little gap?
Matt Bottrill:Yeah. Absolutely. Always. I've always worked. It was kind of, you know, like I won a lot of my race in eight to ten hours, but it was it was evil training.
Matt Bottrill:You know, I was at the stage that like, one of the my biggest biggest successes were I was second in the British time trial championships, which is, you know, like where you race for, the national championship jersey.
Justin Metzler:It's a big deal. Yeah.
Matt Bottrill:Yeah. It's massive, and I was second to Alex Dowsey, only fifteen seconds behind him. And I beat a lot of the world tour athletes, and that's what, you know, they were riding for like Sky. They they you know, these these guys are getting paid hundreds, if not millions of pounds or, you know, and I'm I'm this postman. That's where the flying postman came from, you know.
Matt Bottrill:So but I did it on relatively short hours. And I had two, you know, I have three kids at the time. But the the reason that that success came was the fact that I got the right coach and aerodynamics started to kick in, you know, like wind tunnel testing. You know, like in The UK, we're kind of the innovators. Like people see, you know, like we're in the window now that everybody's getting more aero.
Matt Bottrill:That's why the times are coming down. But, yeah, it was just me just I'd get in the right coach and meeting Simon Smart from Drug two Zero that enabled me to achieve what I did. And I I was kind of 36, and my power was dropping off. You know, I won every race that year, like, I don't know, like 30 races or something. And then he'd race that I didn't win.
Matt Bottrill:I was fourth in the British time trial championships that year. And the people that beat me were Bradley Wiggins, Garrett Thomas, and Alex Dowsett. I remember I was so angry at myself that I didn't want, but now looking back, it's probably the best time trial that you know, one of the best time trials I ever did.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Those are three of the best time trialists almost ever do it. You know what I mean? Like, arguably, they're in the top 10 of all time time trialists, you know?
Matt Bottrill:Absolutely. Yeah, it's It's it's it's been a great journey. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:What were you doing if you could look back and think of maybe one or two things either from an aerodynamics perspective or from a training perspective that were really low hanging fruit that you got a lot of, like, you you maximized your time? Because if you're only doing eight to ten hours a week, like, what were the big sessions?
Matt Bottrill:Totally. It's like a swear word to most people now. Like, I was doing a lot of sweet spot training, you know, like working at 90% of efficiency, you know, because I'm limited on time. I wanna hit a certain amount of training stress through the week. So that was like, it was the volume of a of my training.
Matt Bottrill:Then what I so that was the basis of it. And then what I would do is like six weeks out before like a national championship, then I would start to build like the intervals and progress. And I think that's how training works for a lot of people now, where it goes wrong for most people, they just keep cramming hours and hours. They don't really peak. They're not, you know, like they're not building.
Matt Bottrill:They're just kind of maintaining. But the art for me was it was learning to ride and pace the bike efficiently, you know, like looking at aero. And it was pretty simple initially. Like, I remember, there's two factors that work for like most people. Learn to drop your head into place.
Matt Bottrill:So we call that like this tail position. And that that always works for for triathletes. And then for a lot of cyclists, then we've got like what we call the shrug where you're trying to roll your shoulders into to your ears. That that's quite odd for triathletes to sustain, you know, like you've got swimming, you're learning to run. There's there's a lot of parts, you know, there's there's more pieces of the puzzle that you're trying to put together.
Matt Bottrill:But in always say to people like that, you know, the biggest low hanging fruit you can have without spending any money at all is training in front of the mirror. You know, like understanding what your body can do, you know, like just stick your poles if you've, you know, like you've gone and brought your bike from the bike shop, doesn't matter if it's a thousand pound bike or a 15,000 pound bike, like generally the the cockpits that come with those bikes are not that great. But if you start to mess around with like your pole angle, you'll see that how it rotates your shoulder into place. But it is that learning to drop that head into position that's it's a win win. Because all you're trying to do with, like, aero, you're trying to interact like your head into your shoulders, and then it all enable it to, you know, like the air to attach to, like, you suit ultimately.
Justin Metzler:Sure. So all these things are adding up to add to what you begin to have as your coaching philosophy. So how much of the workouts that you have in your library, the workouts that you prescribe to professional athletes and amateur athletes are things that you just sort of think of versus I saw someone do this, I tried it, I heard someone do this, or I I read an athlete's training plan, they were doing this, it worked for them. How did you come up with the workouts in your library for now?
Matt Bottrill:Yeah. That's real. I just started looking at every like looking at individuals and just understanding like what what they couldn't and couldn't do and then the limitations. And that and that's what I'm still doing today.
Justin Metzler:Mhmm.
Matt Bottrill:Like, ultimately, you know, my philosophy is you're up trying to optimize speed, power, and aerodynamics. And it's trying to engage, like, those those elements realistically. And each athlete can do something differently, you know, like, initially is most people, know, like, they start on a journey of riding a time trial bike, and it's just trying to get them into the drops, isn't it? You know, like, you know, like, you go out and the bike's blowing you all over the place. So then you start off with, you know, like simple exercises.
Matt Bottrill:Like, I I do a lot a lot a lot of, like, twenty forty drills or thirty thirty drill. But all you're trying to do is get into the bars and hold it for thirty seconds or twenty seconds then come out. And then once you get that and you get confidence in the bike, then that's when you can really progress it. Like and and you just progress the same way you progress intervals, you progress aero drills.
Justin Metzler:Yeah.
Matt Bottrill:And then it engages. And once you get to a certain point, you then that that comes natural. Yeah. I remember starting with you Yeah. Like your journey.
Matt Bottrill:I always remember like you were, you know, like sitting up bolt upright, then it it takes, like, probably a year to get it, then you just you kind of just keep fine tuning it from, like, that point realistically. And it's like, you know, I look at you on the bike now, and it comes natural, doesn't it? Yeah. You know, like, you've got a great position on the bike. You've got you've and like nowadays, as you know, like, you're riding like the new drug two zero point six six is it takes all the weight, you drop into it, and it's a lot easier, isn't it?
Matt Bottrill:Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And it I love seeing people like yourself, you know, like when you you know, I remember meeting you for the first time and then I see where you're at now, and you've been on like this journey, and you can keep evolving them. You'll keep evolving and it'll keep progressing really. Like in your eyes, you're really old now, but ultimately, you're still very young, you know?
Matt Bottrill:Yeah.
Justin Metzler:I remember I went and came in for those that don't know, I came and visited Matt in The UK. We did some wind tunnel testing in 2020.
Matt Bottrill:Yep.
Justin Metzler:And I remember I had gotten this new bike and we had just started working together. And I remember you like pulled out a ruler or something to measure my shoulder width in my arrow, like in my TT position. And you're like, oh my gosh, this is way too wide. We got to work on that. I remember being so frustrated first year because on paper, you look, okay.
Justin Metzler:My training plan says 10 by twenty seconds on forty seconds off in the TT position, but I could it was hard for me to do that. Yeah. And, yeah, you just gotta stick with it. You gotta stick with it. Matt's got some amazing videos like on his Instagram and and YouTube that sort of like explain these aero drills and I think that they're definitely like a a hidden secret.
Justin Metzler:All all triathletes just wanna make it harder. They just wanna push more watts, but this is an easy way to get some free speed.
Matt Bottrill:And that's what everybody needs to start looking at. Nobody can buy like a stop by and just you've got to progress it. Do you know what I mean? And and and work at it and then it'll come. But yeah, it's definitely I'd say that, you know, like to get 10 to 20 watts in aero for most people.
Matt Bottrill:But for a lot of triathletes, if you're starting on this journey, you're gonna find like 40 to 50 watts. Totally. And I've, you know, I remember going to the sport, working with people like Tim Donner. You know, they weren't quite at the top of the sport, but they they just needed a bit of a noise to get them there. And, you know, like, we were shaving like, I've done it so many times now.
Matt Bottrill:You're shaving like fifth initially, we're shaving like fifteen to twenty minutes off professional Ironman times. Like like now, it's evolved quite a bit more. It's a lot harder to do that. But for amateurs, this you know, you can shave that time. Like, get out there.
Matt Bottrill:Start understanding it. If you've not had a professional bike fit, you know, we're in Boulder. There's some you've got people like Ivan Gorman, you know, they they understand like all this stuff like Matt Steinmetz, these you've got some good go and get a professional bike fit because you you will progress, you know, and then they start to make you understand like the position, you can evolve it like, you don't just have like one bike fit and away you go. You you've probably got initially, if you're, you know, like you're in a bad state, you might need to go back in six months. But definitely each year, you can evolve it.
Matt Bottrill:You don't need to just go straight into the wind tunnel, you know, like get a bite fit first.
Justin Metzler:Sure. If you're taking on a new athlete, whether they're an amateur or professional athlete, are you focusing first away at, okay, let's improve aerodynamics or are you worried about, okay, let's spend twelve weeks changing the training?
Matt Bottrill:Yeah. That's well, my role has changed quite a bit now. I've just built a team of coaches, but I'm kind of stepping out of the the form of light coaching. If I was yeah. I I generally look at like the training initially, and then I say, okay, well, is where your physiology is.
Matt Bottrill:This is where your power profile is. This is how we we we we can change that. But in order to do that, we've probably got to align, like, bringing in, you know, like, drills into, like, your training. And if you align those two factors, you'll get the best out of the athlete. You know, like, it's like, power and aerodynamics, you've got you've got to align them to.
Matt Bottrill:But, yeah, that's how that's how I always work.
Justin Metzler:Sure. I wanna dive a little bit more into aerodynamics specifically in all of the time and knowledge that you've gained in the wind tunnel. So I would say the first question is what was what is the main thing that you've sort of that you value in the wind tunnel experience?
Matt Bottrill:I think, well, I think a lot of people are making a lot of mistakes going to, like, the wind tunnel. You know, like, I see it now. This and these are world class athletes that they're just chasing, the aero, and they're not understanding, like, your angles and speed. Like, the problem that you've got if you do go to the wind tunnel, a lot of the time people are running too fast. They'll go, oh, I'm gonna run like 50 kilometers an hour.
Matt Bottrill:And they just because it's quite costly that every time you you know, like we do, like well, we always do, like, yaw sweeps. So initially, would do, like, a yaw sweep, and then you'll you'll run it at a set speed. For for for professional traffic, it's about 45 kilometers an hour, 42, depending on if it's female, male. But then we'll do like your sweep, so we start to understand like the position. And then what you want to be able to go from that is you'll probably go right, you know, the average is like two and a half degrees of your, and then you'll start to progress the positioning from that point.
Matt Bottrill:But if something looks, you know, like it flares out, so fucking I would just save 20 watts there, that's when you need to kick like your sweeping. And then so initially, we we do like somewhat like that. But what I always like to do with a lot of athletes is go higher, go lower and understand like what those factors bring in. Because ultimately, especially for triathletes, it's not as important for cyclists. You're always gonna chase the biggest aero portion.
Matt Bottrill:That you wanna understand that it's probably that middle point that's quite important to get. And then from that point, what we do then is utilize positioning in different ways. No one can sustain like this super aero position for the full duration of the the event. I always work on a free position rule. You've got head up.
Matt Bottrill:That's like for climbing or just get me to the finish. We have this medium position where you're not forcing it, but you should be able to drop your head into place. And realistically, 70 to 8% of that race, you should be able to sustain that. Then we have ultra aero. So when the speeds are really high, and this is what confuses a lot of people, that you want to be able to conserve energy, most people and most people think that aerodynamics, we're gonna utilize that more into the headwind.
Matt Bottrill:It's when you're going downhill and the tailwinds that you really wanna save energy because then you're not having to produce like power. Because it's very hard to engage like aero and power together. And that that's the mistake that a lot of people are making. You you you're just trying to hold like this aggressive position in into into the headwind. And ultimately, you get into the tailwind, and then you ultimately, a lot of the time you run out of gears or you're blown at that point.
Matt Bottrill:But that that's what I'm always trying to look at, like the winter and just these just understand windows, and then you you can evolve it from there realistically.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. That's probably one of them I I have a lot of takeaways that I still think about from our time working together, but that's probably the biggest one that I continue to remind myself out on the road and one that I relay on to my athletes preparing. I was just talking to an athlete who raced Ironman Texas, I was saying, hey. It's gonna be headwind one way. It's gonna be tailwind the other way.
Justin Metzler:And his initial inclination would be, oh, I wanna slam my arrow into the headwind Yeah. And then into the tailwind do the opposite. But it's, you know, it's actually counterintuitive thinking in that. So very interesting there. One, I've been to the wind tunnel twice.
Justin Metzler:We went to the wind tunnel together at the Boardman Tunnel, and then I went again in 2022 with Quintana Roo. Yeah. Both times I felt as though it was it's a lot of time. It's a lot of energy. It's a lot of money.
Justin Metzler:And I think on paper, the athletes are are really motivated to find a gain. And I think the people working around the athlete are also motivated to find a gain, and it can be frustrating when you go in there and you're either making stagnant progress or making negative progress. I think everyone's goal is to just, okay, let's find 20 watts Yeah. However that happens. Is that is that what's the best way to approach a wind tunnel session?
Justin Metzler:Because that's kind of from my two experiences there, and I've also done some on road aero testing, it's almost as if you achieve the 20 watts, however it might happen. Yeah. And then the changes that you make are actually not sustainable. Yeah. And then you get to the race and you just revert to baseline and the whole trip was worthless.
Matt Bottrill:Yeah. Absolutely. I think that that can happen. I think the art is though you've got like, if you've done like a quality session, then it's it's it's going away in understanding like what drills and what specific you need to you need to bring into that. It's and I think that's the the I think nowadays, like, I don't know.
Matt Bottrill:It's from like when I met you with with six years down the road, like, you know so much more. I'd I'd say that it's like most people that we like, recently, went with Vincent Murray to the winter and I said to make mate, we make 10 watts today. We've done well. We've done a pre fit. Like 10 watts is a is a good window to have.
Matt Bottrill:Yeah. So and I think that that's the art. If you've had a professional bike fit initially, and then I always say like, look, let's go and train this now for like six months. Like, then we can go to the winter and like refine it. But you are right.
Matt Bottrill:A lot of the times, people are used to check you get to this point because you pay all this money, you you wanna chase.
Justin Metzler:You need to return, you know?
Matt Bottrill:Yeah. You do. And sometimes it is hard, you know, like, you've got to say, well, look, when we've had it, we've got amazing time trials. We can't find them anything, but what it does tell you is that you've just got to build confidence from it, realistically. I do get it.
Matt Bottrill:I think the art for a lot of people is that you've got to try and get get get that professional bite victim first before you start to worry about, like, you you know, like anything else. I think the biggest thing that I have seen is very interesting. This last six months, we've had a lot of new products that's come onto the market. Like, there's a lot of new helmets, skin suits are starting to improve again. And I and I think we'll see over this next year that wheel technology and ties are only gonna improve like even more.
Matt Bottrill:So we we I think we had a few years where ultimately there wasn't much of a shift, but like there's definitely been a shift in the last six months. And that's, you know, we've just seen Ironman Texas. You look at the times everybody's doing, that's a shift from Kona to like here. We'll get another shift, you know, coming to Kona and Nice for for for like the end of this season.
Justin Metzler:Sure. I'm curious as well to understand a little bit about finding this middle ground between power and aerodynamics. So I think like maybe you can go into the tunnel or maybe you can go get professional bike fit where we say, alright. You can achieve your race pace off 300 watts Yeah. But we're gonna have to slam you in a position that's gonna be really uncomfortable, and you might not be able to sustain it.
Justin Metzler:Or we can put you in a less aggressive, less aerodynamic position, and you can hold three twenty, but you can do it all day. Yeah. What would be your choice?
Matt Bottrill:It's gonna be the ultimately, it's probably that middle window still. You want the three ten, really, don't you?
Justin Metzler:Sure.
Matt Bottrill:I I think initially, it's probably the you know, like, you chase, like, more of the power, and then you come, like, over time in this next few months, then we can start to drop you into, like, the position realistically. Yeah. It's unrealistic for, like because it's it's improving again because one of the biggest things now is, like, crank length has improved as well. You know, like, up until like the start of this year, we couldn't even they say like on a SRAM or Shimano crank, we couldn't even get one sixties. Yep.
Matt Bottrill:Where like now, we can get one sixties. That means we can be more aggressive with the position. We can open up the hips more. So it's improving and evolving, but I think that that and that's the it's taken me from you know, I started this journey in '24. It's it's taken me until, like, this last year, I'd say, to understand, like, biomechanics and aero.
Matt Bottrill:You know, I've had to see, like, a lot of people. I've probably done over, 4,000 Biotech fits now, and that that took a long time for me to understand. Yeah. So yeah.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. From an observation perspective, me just being a fan of sport and noticing the trends over the years, also following the trends a little bit myself. You know, ten years ago, we were all going slam stems, negative degrees, tilting the bars down. Okay. Then maybe five years later, you're still sort of at a same the same sort of height, low height, but maybe angling the bars up, getting really steep with the arms.
Justin Metzler:Now what we're seeing is a lot of athletes coming up quite a lot and going along with the bars. What do you think is because I think maybe ten years ago that would have not even been something people would have considered. Why are people going that direction?
Matt Bottrill:Basically, like all that's happening now is we've just got so many degrees of angles. You know what I mean? Like, you know, I'll use like a drag to zero system for example that, you know, like we've got like all these new fancy bars and what we can we can angle these bars by two and a half increments and then we've got so much adaptability with length. And that's the problem that we had. Like, you know, if you looked at like some of the bars now, they're like four I can't work in centimeters, but like they're like 45, 50 centimeters long where previously we used to have like 30 centimeter bars.
Matt Bottrill:And then we had, you know, like ten years ago, I just remember we used to get twenties, 30, 40, and 50 degree angle. Yeah. Where like now, we could we've got so many and that's that's what we we're seeing. And like what a lot of the what you are seeing in that is now is that people are riding like smaller frames. And I was doing this, you know, like 15 ago, they they get in smaller frames and they lift in the stack, then that that makes a faster bike.
Matt Bottrill:It's a bit harder when you've got somebody like yourself that's over six four.
Justin Metzler:I'm on an XL bike no matter Absolutely.
Matt Bottrill:Then it just it becomes a lot harder. But all you're trying to do is that is in is interacting. You're trying to close the gap between, like, your hands and your face a lot of the time and interacting your helmet into your back shape. And that's the bit that we we didn't know much about previously. And that's what we've seen, like, with new technology in clothing as well, materials is attached in the air, you can have like this super high position.
Matt Bottrill:You know, we've got all the new trips on the arms and there's so much that's changed and evolved. So and that's why we can get, you know, a much more aggressive you know, sorry, a less aggressive position for the same arrow. Like people looked at me, you know, like you go on Matt Bottrill, you'll see I've got this amazing flat back. But like nowadays is I've got athletes who've got a very rounded back. They look really high on the front, but their aerodynamics is the same as what mine is.
Matt Bottrill:Sure. And a lot of it is just the angle of the pole.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Yeah. Cool. I've noticed a big difference in getting on the drag to 0.66. I've been able to come up quite a bit,
Matt Bottrill:and it's
Justin Metzler:been more comfortable a lot faster.
Matt Bottrill:I think, you know, this and it's it's amazing. Like, if people came to my unit, you'll see we've got every I've got every bar that's that's going starting at, you know, like, 40 pounds up to you know, we can make custom moldy ones at, 4,000 pounds. But we've worked like, I work a lot with, like, people like drag two zero. Now we've got all these different systems. I must drive Simon mad.
Matt Bottrill:I'm like, oh, man. Can we just can you do this new compute mount? Can you do this new water bottle mount? And we're we're there now. Like, I I think we're at the pinnacle of, you know, like handlebars and positioning.
Matt Bottrill:We are at the pinnacle of it for people that are, you know, taking this very seriously. I don't think I'll be saying to you in another ten years, we've got like this new handlebar that's gonna save you 10 watts. Yeah. We might find one or two, but so much has evolved.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. What about bike frames? I feel like bike frames have been a little bit stagnant, there have been companies like Ventum and Koo and all these other, you know, companies who have tried to maybe make an obscure product that find some gains, but it seems as though they aren't really making a massive difference. What are you seeing in frames right
Matt Bottrill:It's the technologies coming from interaction of wheels and bikes, you know. So interacting the frame and the wheels together with the tire. And that's what you look at all brands now, you'll see specifically they're working with a wheel manufacturer or frame manufacturer coming together. And that's where the technology will change, which is very interesting. Know, I believe that we'll be at the point, there's so much more that can come from there's going to be more that can come from wheels and and tire widths.
Matt Bottrill:We're at this it's very interesting point, you know, like all the new bikes, 20 no one's gonna be running 20 sixes. No one's got 20 fours. We're we're gonna be out to the point of, 30 mil tires. Will we get 30 twos? I don't know.
Matt Bottrill:Rim technology has got to change.
Justin Metzler:Sure. If you're an athlete out there and you're like, I'm in the market for a new bike frame, and I'm in the market for a new set of wheels, like, what right now is catching your attention?
Matt Bottrill:I think, like, there's there's a lot of good product that's coming, like, onto the market, really.
Justin Metzler:And we're gonna try and be unbiased. You're sponsored by Giant and KDX. I'm sponsored by Envy, so Yeah.
Matt Bottrill:But I do think that those two that those two brands are leading the way. You know, like like the new the new Trinity is like the like that is the fastest bike that we have tested. I know that Giant isn't massive in like The UK, but it is all it is now is, frame weight is like that. Like, we're building new Giant Trinities at, like, seven to eight kilograms, which is incredible because that's what has happened with a lot of bikes is that they've got more aero, but they've they've got, like, a lot heavier. I think like Ventum, like I've done some bits with like Ventum and stuff and I think they've got a great new bike that's been launched.
Matt Bottrill:I think for triathletes, I still think that a lot more care into consideration still needs to be thought about like bottle mounting and, you know, like tools, it's just like simple factors. Like, I was designing a bike myself, like, your market is triathletes. You know, there's so many of them that start thinking about like what they actually need. That's the part that I get frustrated about is, you know, trying to get things right. Like, you wanna have accessibility to your nutrition and your hydration.
Matt Bottrill:They're the key factors. And and then your body position is so critical, you know, like being able to adapt like that that front end. And that that's what I'd always look for in a bike. Like, we're at the point now. There's probably between one to four watts in all the top of the frame set.
Matt Bottrill:But if that bike, you can enable that to have more adjustability and then you haven't got a fork out for like a new front end, that's what you ultimately want. And I think brands, that's what we'll probably see in the next few years really. And I think brands needs to get smarter, you know, like, it kind of gets my back up a little bit, you know, like being a bike fitter that you buy like this new bike, you buy it off the peg, it's got the wrong size crank, the handlebars need changing, the saddle probably needs changing. But I think what we'll see in bike shops needs to get smarter is the fact that they need to start offering these services. Like, that's what we do, you know, like, we start with you you spec, you buy.
Matt Bottrill:Obviously, we do giant KDEX, but if you've got your own frame, then we can build that configuration for you. Because everybody's got like a different budget and and everyone's got different needs, haven't they, at the end of the day. But I do think that consumers, that's what they'll want over the next well, I think bike manufacturers are gonna have to they're gonna have to offer that service realistically.
Justin Metzler:What is catching consumers attention from your perspective right now? You're seeing, you know, 4,000 bike fits over the over the time. You know, you're seeing hundreds of bike fits a year. What are the customers consuming?
Matt Bottrill:Short cranks, handlebars, saddles, that sort of And what kind
Justin Metzler:of frames are they bringing in?
Matt Bottrill:Like in The like in The UK, Canyon's really big. Giant's pretty big. Cervelo, obviously, that's massive here in Trek. Mhmm. We we don't see as many of them in Europe and unlike The UK, but they're they're they're they're the main bikes that I'm not seeing realistically.
Matt Bottrill:And then, yeah, diff there's so many different wheels on the market now. That's what blows my mind. It's like incredible, isn't it? You know, like we've got all these new manufacturers. Yeah.
Matt Bottrill:Yeah. It's good
Justin Metzler:to see everyone investing, you know, at least some of the brands reinvesting in triathlon, at least from my perspective, you know, like Enby took a little bit of a departure from triathlon for a while, now they're, you know, reevaluating and understanding that there is a big market in triathlon, and that's cool, you know?
Matt Bottrill:It's massive. Seriously, I would be out of business if I I didn't have triathletes in my life. I'm so happy that I discovered this sport. It's so good. Yeah.
Matt Bottrill:And just the people, like, understanding them, I love it.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. What are the big differences that you see between cyclists and triathletes? I'd
Matt Bottrill:say cyclists are a lot more probably a bit more professionally in like their approach and that they keep everything to to, you know, like and I I would have been the same. Blew my mind. I came into triathlon and I just couldn't believe like no one would ever tell you a session or they'd never give away data. It's like when I came into the sport, initially, damaged, then I started coaching Tim Don, and it was like, well, I wanna know where everybody is in the world. So we do a Google Lionel Saunders.
Matt Bottrill:Every bit of information was out there. So then I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna plot now where everybody is in the world. You know, like people like Jan Ferdino. I thought, well, this is their aero. This is their power.
Matt Bottrill:It was so easy to get. And so that that is a difference. Like, a triathlete will tell you, they'll speak to you, they'll give you all the information away. Cyclists will never do that and still would never do that.
Justin Metzler:Is that a cultural thing or is there something going on behind the scenes in cycling that they're trying to protect?
Matt Bottrill:Yeah. I think it's calculation, isn't it? Because the the margins of error are just like so small. Like, especially in, a time trial, like, one to two seconds. But in a triathlon, it's it's not as important.
Matt Bottrill:Yeah. You can you could you could lose that in transition just dropping your helmet.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. How much do you think that in professional cycling, those guys are looking at each other and understanding immediately what's going on? Because they've seen the rapid ascension of time and pace as well. Right? Like, they're putting up times faster than anybody.
Matt Bottrill:Yeah. Totally. Like, it's just evolved over the last like, this last four years that people have, evolved it, like, so much. I used to work with, like, Lotto Soudel. I worked with Victor Companion.
Matt Bottrill:That's when he broke, like, the hour record. And I remember going to Lotto. I actually met Victor out in Kona and a few beers with him, and he asked me if I'd consider, like, working with the team. I was like, yeah, of course, Victor. But I never thought any more of it.
Matt Bottrill:And next thing I know, I'm on a plane to New York and bike fitting these these athletes. And I I didn't think that I was good enough, but I walked into this, you know, this environment, and it just blew my mind just how bad it was. Mhmm. You know, like, you know, we have people in the sixties, seventies with better bike fits. But now you can see over this last especially the last couple of years, like how much it's evolved.
Matt Bottrill:A lot of people are employing people from, like, The UK to go into these teams to look after all the the the disinformation and look at the bite fit, look at the aero, look at the pacing plans because the pacing plan is really important as well. So it's no. Like, none of those athletes giving away, like, information. Sure.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. That's interesting. And it seems as though The UK is just a hotbed. Like, there's so much coming from The UK, not only incredibly talented cyclists in their own right, but, like so much of the coaching and the knowledge and the aerodynamics is coming from there. All the wind tunnels are there.
Justin Metzler:And for a relatively small country in comparison to The United States, for example, or Canada, or Australia, like everyone's coming from The UK. Why is that?
Matt Bottrill:I think we just obsessed like it's the time trialing culture that, you know, like, you could literally ride against the clock every day of the week. Mhmm. You know? And then there's so many races in the weekend. And and what what you generally find in is that a lot of these people haven't got a lot of power, so they try and chase, like, the aerodynamics.
Matt Bottrill:And we and we're very fortunate that, you know, like, a lot of these that, you know, the innovation has come from people that were worked in Formula One. You know, like, look at drag to zero, Simon Smart was like the innovator. Then you got people like Dan Bigham that was trying to break into Formula One. He actually worked for Drag two zero, then sell Watt Shop. People like, you know, like Aerocoats, as I've additionally, that was just been obsessed with like TT.
Matt Bottrill:And they're like the big names that have kind of they've innovated a lot of this stuff. So and it's just it's an obsessive, you know, we're just obsessed with it. Just going fast, you know. So and, yeah. I think that we'll we'll we'll always lead that way, you know.
Matt Bottrill:I think I think it's great. And it's great to see that The USA is it just needs to catch up a little bit. And I think that's what you've seen, you know, like the Europeans, like a lot of the stuff that we had in The UK has gone to Europe. Now, like, if you're in The USA, you just need to catch up like a little bit. But the the products are there and you can get them.
Matt Bottrill:You just got believe in it. Believe in it. You know? Like, don't just don't think that you can you can buy like your new bike. Start to, you know, speak to your bike shop or speak to one of the professionals that are in the in The States and and and evolve it.
Matt Bottrill:Sure.
Justin Metzler:I wanna circle back before we move on. Just one more question about the wind tunnel. What is one thing that you've tested that completely shocked you and you had to go retest immediately?
Matt Bottrill:I think the ball between the arms, like, it's it's kind of a a winning formula every time.
Justin Metzler:Mhmm.
Matt Bottrill:You know what I mean? It was I remember testing that and or Yeah. When we were sticking the bottle down the chest, that that that was probably the one that always always generally works realistically. And dropping your head into position is is always like the the key one. Sure.
Matt Bottrill:You always find that that head position is like critical to going quick.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. That bottle down the chest thing is is very interesting because that was such a hot topic in triathletes. Like, it just it was like a viral meme type situation.
Matt Bottrill:Do you wanna know how that all started? Basically, it was Tony Martin who wanted to win, like, the world championships. So Simon Smart knew about he was messing around with, like, skin suit. We're developing skin suits at the time. So what they did, we got some bubble wrap, stuck that down the chest, and we thought, blimey, that gives, like, four to five watts, and that's where it all started.
Matt Bottrill:Then what happened was we did sub seven. So obviously, there was Dan Bigham's team, and then I was riding for like Christian's team. And we knew about the bottle, but we was we were always I was a bit I didn't I didn't want the athletes to overheat.
Justin Metzler:Sure.
Matt Bottrill:And then everybody's seen the bottle down the chest. It's Camelback that was down the chest, and then that's when he he kind of ignited it. We never wanted to tell people because we knew that it would go to, like, the extreme of people taking it too far. Sure. Because and that's what we started to see, wasn't it?
Matt Bottrill:People would then start, you know, it was sticking like three bottles down the chest. I remember, I think it was like Sam Laidlow created this. He was doing Ironman Lanzarote where it created this massive fairing and ended up overeating.
Justin Metzler:Oh, sure.
Matt Bottrill:He he just got pushed to extreme. But you generally find that, you know, like the the bottle down the chest and the bottle on the frame, that doesn't realistically work. A lot of the time is you just you just need the one and not the
Justin Metzler:like, oh, wow. He's got this big chest. We need to maybe give ourselves a big chest. And then I had done some on road arrow testing with Jim Manton in Tucson.
Matt Bottrill:I watched it. Yeah. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. And we put the bottle down the chest. And for me, it was negative five or like negative five watts. Yeah. I I lost five watts of aero.
Justin Metzler:It was slower for me. So that was a big eye opener because all of 2023, I was racing with a big one liter in my chest and losing five watts of aerodynamics thinking I was gaining five. So there's always an anomaly to the rule. You know what I mean? Like, that's just the thing with aerodynamics and individuality.
Matt Bottrill:This is definitely certain trend. Like I can see trends now, you know, like like back positions. These are all trends with this that all generally work for a lot of people. Sure.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Alright. Well, I want to move on and I want to talk a little bit more about your exposure to super high level professional athletes. That's something that you're well known for whether in a direct coaching role or in a consulting role. Talk to me a little bit about what you enjoy when it comes to working with the professionals.
Matt Bottrill:I probably find I think the the easiest thing for me working with a professional, there's a lot more at stake, but I can relate to that a lot easier because that's where I was. You know? And I love the pressure with the process. Like, some of the stuff that I've had to do, You know, initially, you know, obviously, the first person I've ever worked with like Tim Don, and the realization was to me that actually this dude gets paid to do this. I can't mess this up.
Matt Bottrill:And then I I just had to visualize becoming Tim Don. Mhmm. You know, I started to do triathlon myself to understand, like, what the demands of, you know, it take out like the body. And then ultimately, from that process and with the people that I've worked with, when I worked with them, I become them. And then I I have to think about, like, I'll I'll do a lot of research into the the athlete and understand, like, what they can and can't do and where they are.
Matt Bottrill:I'll get them to send me, like, files, look at them more aerodynamically, and then how do we progress that? The oddest part, like because my role has changed so much over this last few years that I don't I don't coach these athletes now. They generally have, a coach that then I'll work with, and then they kind of build a team. And that that becomes, like, quite hard in in some respects because you want them to do like aero drills, but the coach wants to do the so all I can do in that situation is advise them. And and just be realistic about like their approach in terms of this is where you are today.
Matt Bottrill:The the art for me is not just only making this is for triathlete. Not just making them I want to get them more aero, but then I don't want to diminish don't want to diminish and return in terms of how they're running off the bike really. And that's what, you know, because there's a cost that can be affected with that. So and that that's how I always work.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Coaches, at least from my perspective and with my coaching, I like environments where I have a lot of control. Yeah. Because when you don't have all the variables, it's very difficult to make all the progress and you kind of need athletes to buy in all the way with your approach in order for you to get the maximum amount of return. Do you struggle with that when you're just consulting athletes because there are so many cooks in the kitchen?
Matt Bottrill:Yeah. So some people like, I don't really struggle a lot. I give them the option, really. I can say, well, I can provide you with the specific aerogels that I want that athlete to, like, focus, then you implement it. And some people are buying to that and others won't.
Matt Bottrill:I think the more science driven they are, they're like, oh, why do you need to do like that? Is it looking at the physiological adaptation rather than trying to align them? But I think that's that's how I like to work now is is like build drills that people need, and then it's up to the coaches to implement it.
Justin Metzler:Sure. How much of the coaches right now are focusing purely on physiology versus just like real world application? Like, a lot of stuff that we were doing, and I don't wanna give away all your, like, trade secrets, but they were the aero drills. They were surging over the crest of the top of a hill when you're out on the road. They were working the headwind and the tailwind.
Justin Metzler:Like, those were all areas that we were practicing every single week. Are the coaches right now just saying l t one, l t two, hit the lactate?
Matt Bottrill:I think yeah. I think that's where most of them are. I don't think a lot of them understand that element of it. They've never done it, or they don't understand, like, why they're doing it. I don't see too many people doing that.
Matt Bottrill:And I think that's that's gotta be like the next phase. Because we this is all gonna get faster. We're not at the pinnacle. We've seen some amazing results at the weekend. There's going be more of that to come.
Matt Bottrill:I think that's where you'll always it's like for you, Justin. You know, I think the great thing for you is you've worked with some of the great coaches. You've been through this process yourself. And if you can, you know, over time, you should I'm not trying to big you up now, but you are still young. If you can align like those elements, and you can you can start to lead the way like a little bit, you know, like
Justin Metzler:That's what I'm trying to do. I think like that's my vision over the course of the next ten years is to really sort of jump into the high performance coaching world. And I feel like I have a lot of experience now, and I wanna continue to gather that from observation and mentorship with like coaches who are more experienced and smarter than me, but also through just personal experience. Because I think like like you said, when you start coaching Tim Don and you go do a triathlon, like, for me, experiencing a session is the most valuable information. Do you feel as though there are coaches out there in the elite world who are maybe sitting behind a computer or reading a textbook or publishing a study who don't experience what a session feels like and there's a gap in the prescription and therefore a failure?
Justin Metzler:Or do you think like it can be done just from a conceptual perspective?
Matt Bottrill:I think for some yeah. I I believe that you you have to get out there in the field or go out with the athlete to understand it. You know, like, that's that's and understand that what the adaptation is bringing. Because, like, how do you it's like, that's why I would always ride till the day that I die, and I I always wanna keep fit that I can then explain to the athlete and see, like, what they're doing. I can see, like, the power and the heart rate through a training, you know, the download into training peaks, but I'm not seeing, like, how the body moves and what they're doing with the position.
Matt Bottrill:Is it fast or is it slow? You know? Because anyone can whack out, sit upon the bars and whack out, like, a big number, and it but have they done it in the right way? You know, like because we are at the point, like, time trial in triathlon is getting to the point. It's just tactical as road racing.
Matt Bottrill:Do you know what I mean? Like, you've got to understand, like, the crosswinds. You've got to understand, like, these all these element. You you always wanna get one above. You wanna lead the curve, not follow it.
Matt Bottrill:And that's what we're seeing at the minute is a lot of people are following the curve. We need to lead it. And but you've gotta innovate. Innovate or die. You know?
Matt Bottrill:Yeah.
Justin Metzler:Absolutely. I'm curious to hear your perspective on you've coached a range of athletes. You've had access to professional athletes who are just getting going, mid packers. When we started, I was very much a mid packer, maybe still a mid packer. I don't know.
Justin Metzler:And very high level, you know, world champions. Is it harder to take a an okay pro and make them good or a good pro and make them great?
Matt Bottrill:It's probably yeah. He's trying to take, an amateur and make them good because the the the top of the, you know, at the top of the sport, they could train in, like, so many different ways, and they're still gonna get there. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I think the the biggest satisfaction is doing a lot of that stuff, you know, like, you're trying to, you know, like, you're trying to take somebody that's, you know, they're just there, then you you can can just turn it.
Matt Bottrill:Can you make them into a world champion? The answer is probably no. Sure. But like you are born with something, I believe. You know, like to be the best in the world, that that's an element that you're born with.
Matt Bottrill:Sure. You know? But you yeah, there's a lot of satisfaction in just just getting the results out of the people.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. I think a lot of the super high level coaches that get really bigged up right now and and get a lot of attention, like, they've gotten athletes at a peak. You know what I mean? Like, they were on their path to world champion or already world champion when they secured that athlete, so therefore, get a lot of credit for it. And I think there's a lot of coaches out there who don't get enough credit by taking an athlete who was maybe, you know, a top 20 athlete and turning him into a podium athlete.
Justin Metzler:You know? That's a big jump to go from twentieth place in a set and even just normal 70.3, like tenth to twentieth place to a podium. Yeah. That's a huge jump, and people don't realize how big of a jump that is.
Matt Bottrill:Yeah. You know? It's like I remember working with you, and, you know, like, it was was it Arizona that you did where you beat Lionel?
Justin Metzler:Oh, Coeur D'Alene.
Matt Bottrill:Coeur D'Alene. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just trying but that was one of my that was a proud moment for me.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. That
Matt Bottrill:was You know, like taking like a you were you you know, like a young guy, I remember meeting you for the first time and you're you're on like your journey. That that that was a proud moment for me. The obvious one of the biggest proudest moments I've had is it's like, you know, like like Tim O'Donnell taking him from, you know, obviously trying to win Kona, but we're getting we wanted to win, but getting that second place, like that jump from that's that that was quite hard, you know, his best was third. Getting that second, man, we have to go like through some but the guy's old. You know, we were we were laughing about this.
Matt Bottrill:He was like 37. We turned him and that is so when somebody's young, it's a bit easier to turn them, but I've done a lot with older athletes I'm so proud about. You know, like yeah. That that that you you obviously have been a lot with like, Teo. It's it's a proud moment now.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. That's very cool. Very, very cool. I'm curious a little bit to talk just a little bit more about yeah. Who have been some of the like, you've mentioned T.
Justin Metzler:O. Who have been some of the favorite athletes that you've worked with? That can be personal. That can be, like, because they're a super hard worker and they really absorb the training or anything like that? I
Matt Bottrill:think, like, the the athletes that I've yeah. That I've always like, we've done quite a bit with, Taylor Nieb. I love her. She's kind of, like, so quirky. You know, like, she just makes me smile, like, trying to learn a lot like this process that she's gotta go through at the minute, you know, like, I love that.
Matt Bottrill:She always brings a smile to me. And people saying thanks, like, she always said, oh, thanks for helping me. You know, like, that goes like a lot a lot.
Justin Metzler:That's huge. Yeah.
Matt Bottrill:Yeah. It's like, that's all I want at the end of the day. You know, like, people that say thanks. I hate it that some people will come into the the office and they don't they never engage with you, like, after that point, really. Is there anyone that's done that?
Matt Bottrill:Victor Campanile, he's one of the most interesting characters that I've worked with. I I was on yeah. The yeah. He's just mental. You know what I mean?
Matt Bottrill:Like, things that he thinks of are just on a on a different level, then you have to go away and like research it. And you really know you really have to know like what you're thinking about. I think the athlete I've engaged with like the most, you know, he's like my mate now. He's definitely Tim O'Donnell, you know, like we've like, me and Teo will be like mates forever. So Yeah.
Justin Metzler:He's he's an easy guy to be mates forever with because I feel similarly similarly about him.
Matt Bottrill:You know?
Justin Metzler:He's just one of those guys.
Matt Bottrill:Well, what's nice about Tim for me is the fact that he, you know, like, I can come out here with my family, and he he takes me into his home, and he makes them, like, really welcome. And that that goes, a long way. And I love it, like, I remember you coming and stopping at my house, and you engaged with my, you know, my wife and my kids. That that to me goes further than any any results, really.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. I think that's something, you know, having had a quarter life crisis in the last year with, you know, having a big surgery and not getting the results over the last year and realizing that, like, the results aren't the end all be all. It's really like those experiences and those relationships and I think like that's a really good perspective to have in a world where like everything is so money driven, high performance driven. Like when you look back at a career and a life, you wanna be like, alright, I had a good time and met people and engaged,
Matt Bottrill:That's you the art of coaching though, isn't it? Like, I always, you know, like it's like when you coach somebody like, you know, I coach you, but I get it. You wanna be we haven't got like, you're gonna move on. Like, all athletes gonna move on at like some point. And that's like in the back end of the like the career.
Matt Bottrill:But you never need to fall out with people. Sure. You know what I mean? It's kind of like and that that's the art of coaching. You have to take what you can get from that point.
Matt Bottrill:And it is ruthless, you know, like and then you go, well, okay, I've got to this point with that, then then they have to evolve. And I think that you, you know, like when things go right or wrong, then you have to look back sometimes, gosh, that was really good. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So
Justin Metzler:You don't know how good it is until, you know, maybe reflect a little bit, you know?
Matt Bottrill:Yeah. But that's the art of like, you should never really thought, you know, like, it's not when people move on from like coaching. They should always, like, always leave on good terms, realistically.
Justin Metzler:That's the and I've been fortunate that I haven't had that many coaches, but I've had enough to have it go both ways. And the best coaches I've had have been the ones who are like, I want what's best for you. Yeah. Doors always open if you ever need anything. I wish you all the best.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. And some some people don't don't have that response, but I really appreciate it when coaches understand where the athlete's coming from.
Matt Bottrill:I think that's the way the best way, like, that's starting on like coaching. Like, if you think of, you know, like, you listen to this thing, oh, I'd like to be a coach. Well, don't don't worry about, like, the money or the, like, worry about, like, doing a good job. 100%. Like, that that's the art of a lot of listening.
Matt Bottrill:Winds me up. I'm gonna be busy for the till I die, because, like, there's so many people in The UK, like, the triathlon coaches, now they buy it first. You know, they do swim analysis. Now they can do it. Doing it because you're not making a good job.
Matt Bottrill:Like if you don't know what you're doing, don't focus on like that, those factors, you know. And that's why, you know, we're booking at the stage not longer, we're a lot four months in advance that I'm trying to fix all these problems that people are messing up.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. How much of your current life is bike fitting versus coaching and consulting?
Matt Bottrill:My my coaching element now is I coached like eight people, you know, like and these people have been me from when I started. Because I don't think it's it's not fair where the situation that I'm in at the minute that I I'm I'm so busy with BikeFit. That that's my life now. And the people that I'm working with, they're respectful of like my time. If they they need a session train, you know, changing, they'll they'll message me and I'll tell them what to do.
Matt Bottrill:But I haven't got time to be on like the call and do all of that. And that that's the biggest part. It's it's too selfish. I've got a team of like seven coaches that I've, you know, like I've trained and then they they've taken on that role realistically. But my my job is it's gonna be bike fitting to the yeah.
Matt Bottrill:And building bikes, like, that's the bit that I love,
Justin Metzler:you know. Yeah. I love that. You know, that's really cool that you've been able to, you know, build this and now focus on what you wanna focus
Matt Bottrill:It's amazing how it changed. It was COVID that changed a lot for me, you know, like, trained already to do, like, bike fit, and then it it kind of went we we went our separate ways, and I was like, I wanna get back to doing this. This is why I'm I love being hands on. Because like coaching can be a lonely place like a lot of the time because it's fine, you know, like you're working with a pro, they want to engage, they want they probably need a bit more contact. But a lot of people, age groupers, they're so busy with the time that they they don't want that phone call.
Matt Bottrill:They just wanna tick the green box Yeah. Away they go on to the next one. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:For sure. Alright. Well, this has been, like, incredibly insightful. I appreciate your transparency in all these questions. Before we wrap up, I've got some rapid fire questions for you.
Matt Bottrill:I've seen these. I don't know if I'll be able to answer them.
Justin Metzler:Alright. Here we go. We'll get into it. What is the most difficult bike to fit? Oh, Plasma five.
Justin Metzler:Really? Yeah. I almost bought that bike.
Matt Bottrill:Oh, it's evil. Like trying to if it's not been built correctly, that bike is a nightmare.
Justin Metzler:Okay. Forewarning for anyone looking at us, Scott. Plasma five. Which training session have you been the most destroyed on? And I'm recalling a couple Kansas moments here when we did a training camp together.
Matt Bottrill:Anything where you got my answer is never going be pleasant. Heat always kills me. I think the oddest session for me was doing intervals to failure, where you ride at 110 of your threshold, and you keep repeating four minute intervals with four minutes recovery until you can't do no more. But if you get it wrong, then, yeah, you shouldn't be able to get above like eight realistically, but it's that's probably the hardest thing. I used to use those sessions for like the key ones building into like nationals.
Justin Metzler:What's the max number that you got through?
Matt Bottrill:I think I got to eight.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. That's pretty impressive.
Matt Bottrill:Yeah. It was yeah. Pretty tough.
Justin Metzler:Alright. Who will be the first triathlete to go sub seven in a normal regulated triathlon?
Matt Bottrill:Oh, god. That's a good question. I think, at the minute, it's gonna be Christian. Yeah. Like, if he can align like all the stars, like, he is a phenomenal athlete.
Matt Bottrill:He just needs everything to align. Like, I I can see that I've worked with Christian. He's back in the game now, isn't he? You could see that performance. I I think he's gonna be
Justin Metzler:the dude. Yeah. I agree. I agree. Alright.
Justin Metzler:Or maybe somebody who we don't even know about yet. Yeah.
Matt Bottrill:Who like did like two years time, there'd be somebody else, maybe.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. One of these nineteen, twenty year Yeah. Coming up and
Matt Bottrill:People are getting hungry. That's what I love. And that Yeah. You want that.
Justin Metzler:Yep. Absolutely. Alright. Who is the most talented athlete who you've ever coached or advised?
Matt Bottrill:Most talented? Probably Tim Don.
Justin Metzler:Tim Don? Wow.
Matt Bottrill:Or Taylor Nibbs? Yeah. I'd say that Tim Don was probably the most talented. Taylor Nibbs, I don't really coached, you
Justin Metzler:know. Advise coach or advised.
Matt Bottrill:Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Taylor. Yeah.
Matt Bottrill:She's she's very switched on, and the talent that she's got is phenomenal. Yeah. So and she's still so young, you know, like, she's I you spoke to her. She's probably down about like the weekend, but I'm like, I said, I need a second Ironman that you've done. He's like, Dan was really smart with his approach.
Matt Bottrill:He's not broken it going into that. Sure. That's a smart coaching, you know, like, don't break the athlete, just get them through it.
Justin Metzler:Absolutely. Alright. Who was the hardest working pro you've ever worked with?
Matt Bottrill:Matt Hanson, by shadow of a doubt. That dude can just freaking out, like, he just wants to please.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. 100%. I've trained with Matt enough to know that. Alright. And if you had to race seventy point three Boulder in a few weeks, how many pro men would you out bike today?
Matt Bottrill:I think majority of them. There might be a few that
Justin Metzler:Oh, majority, man. Shots fired.
Matt Bottrill:But maybe if I'd yeah. Give me a bit of attitude training. I reckon I could still I could probably I can still push, you know. I used so for like 56 miles, I used to be able to do I probably have to do like 355 to 360. We're not we're not we're not counting the running this, are we?
Matt Bottrill:Have we got I
Justin Metzler:guess not. Yeah.
Matt Bottrill:Yeah.
Justin Metzler:You gotta make it round. You can't, like, you can't pull off
Matt Bottrill:the course. Yeah. I think I could yeah. I I think I could still own my home, really, to do this. Depends who I suppose he soon turns up.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. I love that. Alright, man. Well, this is awesome. I appreciate you coming to the studio.
Matt Bottrill:Was great catching up. Oh, thank you so much, Justin. See you in
Justin Metzler:the next episode. Peace. Thank you very much.
