Mark Allen: 6x Ironman World Champion and GOAT of Men's Triathlon
Alright, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Endurance Matters podcast. I'm your host, Justin Metzler. I have the pleasure of welcoming Mark Allen to the show today. Mark, welcome to the podcast.
Mark Allen:Hey, great to be here. Great to talk about all things triathlon.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Really looking forward to this one because you're an icon, a legend of the sport and, you know, we've been in the same circles for quite some time and run into each other here or there at some races, but I don't know that much about you other than what I've read and heard over the Internet. And so looking forward to getting into it. I start off the podcast here with a hard hitting question. So the first one I have for you today is you're well known for your nickname, the grip.
Justin Metzler:If you had to choose a different nickname because the grip was taken, what would you choose?
Mark Allen:Oh, good god. I don't know. You know, my my entire life, I have had nicknames. You know? I I was the grip.
Mark Allen:In high school, I was this absolute little shrimp. Like, I was the smallest guy on the swim team, smallest guy on the water polo team. And so and everybody else in in high school, they all had, like, full on beards, and I still looked like I was in third grade. And so they called me Twanger. So in high school, my nickname was Twanger.
Mark Allen:So, you know, when I graduated from Twanger to the grip, I thought, okay. That's good. I I don't need another nickname. But, yeah, if I was gonna have another nickname oh, jeez. I don't know.
Mark Allen:I I actually kinda like Mark. You know, that's that's a pretty good that's a pretty good start.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. %. I think from twanger to grip, you definitely got an upgrade. So, you know, you've owned that grip a % now. I wanna rewind a little bit.
Justin Metzler:Can you talk to me a little bit about what your athletic background was as a kid growing up sort of like as you transitioned into triathlon?
Mark Allen:Yeah. I mean, it it's my evolution as an athlete is I think it's pretty interesting because growing up, I didn't feel like I had any kind of athletic talent, but I had athletic passion. I loved moving. I loved running around. And and I loved the sports where everybody got to participate.
Mark Allen:Like, you know, a lot of team sports, the stars are the ones who get all the action. And if you were like me, like, I I played little league one year as a kid. And, you know, the position that they put you in if you're like the worst guy in the team where you can do the least damage is right field. Because nobody hits into right field, especially kids. They can't hit that far, and right field is like forget it.
Mark Allen:So, you know, and and when that when they would line us up at school to pick teams and the team captain, you know, they'd pick this one and then the other one would pick. I was always like the last person pick because nobody wanted me on my on their team, that kind of a thing. You know? So it wasn't good for my athletic ego or my athletic self confidence. But in 1968, I was watching the Mexico City Olympics, and I was absolutely mesmerized by the long distance swimmers of all the events that I saw that year.
Mark Allen:And it was the first Olympics that I'd seen on on television. And I you know, watching them going back and forth in this 50 meter pool, I'm like, oh my god. How can a human being do that? Because for me at that point in time, I was 10 years old, to do one lap across a twenty five year yard pool was like a near death experience. You know?
Mark Allen:And so and and about a couple months after that those Olympics, I was living in Palo Alto. That's where I grew up. There was an advertisement in the local newspaper that the local swim team was having tryouts. And my mom goes, why don't you go? You love what those swimmers are doing.
Mark Allen:I'm like, mom, I can't even swim once across the pool. And she goes, just try it. You know? And so I I went, and there was all these kids, and the kids who were on the team were going back and forth. I'm like, okay.
Mark Allen:God. You know, they're 10 years old, and they're going back and forth. And so I I they said, you know, hop in and and swim a couple laps. And so I actually swam four laps, and I didn't I didn't drown. I didn't die.
Mark Allen:I actually made it. I'm like, oh my god. You know? Four laps. That's a hundred yards.
Mark Allen:That's
Justin Metzler:pretty good.
Mark Allen:Math. And and that's where it began. And I swam competitively for twelve years, but I was I was very mediocre. You know, I I never did anything that was newsworthy. I I was never fast enough to even think that I was close to qualifying for Olympics, Olympic trials, any kind of national championship, none of that stuff.
Mark Allen:But it was super fun and super satisfying for me. You know? Like, if I could get a couple tenths faster in my hundred yard back, that was just so fulfilling. And I love that thing of just going and drilling down into the workouts and doing them over and over and over and then eventually seeing that those personal successes. And, you know, that's that was my background.
Mark Allen:You know? I I didn't do sports or swimming for all of those years to gain any kind of recognition. It was really a personal satisfaction fulfillment kind of a journey. And I think if you look at people in triathlon, that's what 99% of the people in the sport are doing. It's something that's very personal.
Mark Allen:You know, I just wanna get to the finish line. I I I wanna do a little bit faster in the race than I went last year. And and those personal gains, whether they're in training or racing, as you know, are are super exciting and super fulfilling. So, anyway, I I finished swimming when I was 22, made it all the way through college. And then at that point, and this was back in 1980, At that point, I thought, okay.
Mark Allen:This is the peak of my athletic fitness. I am forever going to get in worse and worse shape. And six months after that, my girlfriend at the time was she liked to run, and she got me to enter this five ten k with her. And so, you know, I had a pair of running shoes, and I didn't train. But I'm I'm doing this 10 k, and here I'm I'm, like, you know, 23, 20 four.
Mark Allen:And guys over twice my age were blowing by me. And so the little light bulb started to go on like, you know, maybe there is athletics after you get out of college, and maybe that is not the peak of the experience that I can have. But I you know, two years later, I'm 24 years old, 1982, I'm watching Wide World of Sports, and it's the infamous Julie Moss crawl to the finish line. And I was, you know, I was watching this thing called Ironman that Jim McKay was talking about and saying, you know, 2.4 miles, 712 mile bike marathon. And I'm thinking, how many days does it take these people to finish that crazy thing?
Mark Allen:I thought it had to be, like, two or three days. Right? And he's like, they start at seven. They gotta finish by midnight, seventeen hours later. I'm like, that's impossible.
Mark Allen:And, you know, as I'm at first, I thought this is the most ridiculous thing ever. But then the emotion of seeing this very ordinary looking young woman crawling and making it to the finish line and Kathleen McCartney passing or just within feet of Julie finishing, you know, the tears were coming down my face. And about two weeks after that, I thought, I have to go there and see if I can be one of those people to cross that amazing finish line. And so about nine months, ten months after that, October 1982, I was on the start line of the Ironman. And my goal clearly was just to finish.
Mark Allen:I thought, okay, I don't really know what my career path is yet. I'm gonna train for this thing for the next eight or nine months. I won't have time to think about what I'm gonna do with my life. I'm just gonna swim, bike, and run and see if I can cross that amazing finish line. And so that's that's how it started.
Mark Allen:I was gonna do the Ironman once. Clearly, that plan got modified a little bit.
Justin Metzler:That's cool. That's an amazing origin story. And I guess from there, I guess, tell the listeners and tell me a little bit about how that first race went and how you sort of transition that into, you know, taking it more seriously and making it sort of part of your life.
Mark Allen:Yeah. Well, like, you know, I'm sure you can imagine that back in 1982, there was no AI triathlon training. There were no triathlon coaches. There was no resource to help you understand how to train. And so I had a friend who was a cyclist, he got me set up on cycling.
Mark Allen:I figured I had the swimming part covered. And, you know, I I was reading in magazines, like, do you train for a marathon? And I started juggling all this stuff together. And right away, I realized, you know, if I train like a swimmer to do well at 2.4 miles, if I train like a cyclist to time trial for a 12, and if I train like a runner to run a marathon, I'm gonna completely explode my entire human body into twelve million pieces. Right?
Mark Allen:And so that was that was a you know, really early on just in the first month or so of training, I realized triathlon is not three different sports. It's one sport with three disciplines. And so I started modifying and figuring out kind of how to make this all happen. And so I got to Kona that October. And, of course, I I had never run a marathon.
Mark Allen:I had no idea if I was gonna be able to finish the race. But I was 24, and I was super excited. And I I'm in this incredible event that I'd seen on television. And I I got there, and I I went for a run on Ali'i Drive, and I'm like, oh my god. These people are so fit.
Mark Allen:And I'm I'm looking at myself, and I'm like, I'm not that skinny. You know? I'm like, oh my god. You know? I was, like, terrified.
Mark Allen:You know? And there were about a thousand people in the race that year. And you have to understand, to get in the race in 1982, you called up the Ironman office. They sent you the application. You sent it back with your check and a headshot, you were in.
Mark Allen:It was not the process that you have to go through now. And, you know, Dave Scott was there. He was he'd won the race once. He and he was hoping to, you know, win his second title. And, you know, he was the guy to beat.
Mark Allen:And, anyways but I wasn't thinking about beating anybody. I was just trying to, you know, hopefully cross the finish line. And, you know, the cannon sounded at 7AM, and there was that feeling of, you know, once we started kinda like the nerves just went away. You know? And you you you sort of get all of a sudden, your your world shrinks into just, like, the people that are swimming around you.
Mark Allen:And, you know, every now and then, I was looking around and seeing the the fish under the water. And, you know, I I wasn't I mean, I was going as hard as I could, but I wasn't, like, thinking anything. You know? I was just like, this is kinda cool. You know?
Mark Allen:And and then, you know, you make it to the turnaround, and I started heading back. And I I had gotten on the feet of this guy that was swimming at a pretty good pace. And and at one point, I thought, I wonder where the leaders are. And I you know, like I said, I wasn't really in a huge hurry. So I kinda stopped, I was treading water.
Mark Allen:And and the only guy I could see was this guy right in front of me. I'm like, man, those top guys are so fast. They're so far ahead. I can't even see them. You know?
Mark Allen:At the end of the swim, I came out of the water, and I'm still on this guy's feet. And, you know, he runs up the ramp. I run up the ramp, and, you know, and it was a huge moment of relief like, oh, thank god. I'm out of the water, and I can actually see the world again. You know?
Mark Allen:And as I was running up the ramp, somebody yelled yelled out, you're in second place. And I'm looking around like, who are they talking to? And I realized, oh my god. I am on the feet of the leader of the race. And so I ran up.
Mark Allen:I I'm like, I wonder who the dude is who's in front of me. And I looked. I'm like, it's freaking Dave Scott, the man. Dave Scott, he's like the best guy in the world, and I'm with him. I'm like, this sport is amazing.
Mark Allen:You know? And I'm like, okay. Don't get too excited. You're you were a swimmer, so, you know, it's probably gonna go downhill from here. Well, by Javi, still with Dave Scott, halfway through the bike, We had a five minute lead on everybody else, and I'm still with him.
Mark Allen:And I'm feeling amazing. And, you know, we made the turn, and those head those tailwinds were, like, howling. And finally, it kinda got to a point where, you know, we made it back to to Kauaihi, and we headed back on the Queen K. And and, you know, I I can be kind of a thorn in people's side sometimes. And I, you know, I had never talked to Dave before, so I pulled up next to him.
Mark Allen:I go, hey, Dave. When we're done with the bike, you wanna go for a run? And he looks over at me like and he goes, who are you? Yeah. And I I go, well, my name is Mark Allen.
Mark Allen:And he goes, oh, I think I heard you. And he clicked his bike into a big gear, and he took off. And I'm like, alright. That conversation didn't go so well. I put my bike into a big gear, and I hear this, like, screeching metal scraping clanking sound.
Mark Allen:And I looked down, and part of my derailleur had broken off. And, you know, my my gears got stuck in the biggest gear, and, you know, I had, whatever, almost 40 miles left on the on on the bike ride in my biggest gear. I'm like, if I do that, I'm gonna ruin my my knee my knees for life. And so I didn't finish that year. You know?
Mark Allen:And that was that was my goal. I was gonna go try to finish. I had a secret goal of hoping to be in the top 100, and I didn't complete that. But I had been with the best guy in the world, Dave Scott, for several hours of racing. And that's where, you know, that seed of a dream was really born.
Mark Allen:Like, maybe if I can stick with this, I don't know how I would, maybe I can be one of the best in the world. Maybe I can even win this race. I don't know. And it was shortly after that, I was I was back in San Diego, and I was just out training. And there was another young triathlete.
Mark Allen:His name was George Hoover. And he wrote up to me and he goes, hey, you're Mark Allen, right? And I go, yeah. And he goes, hey, mom and her partner, they have an investment firm in La Jolla. It's called J David.
Mark Allen:And we're starting a triathlon team, and we'd love you to be on the team. And I said, oh, well, hey. What does that mean? You know? And he goes, well, we'll we'll pay for your entry fees, and we'll fly you to all the races, and we'll pay you a thousand dollars a month.
Mark Allen:And I'm like, a thousand a month? You know? And I tried to hide my enthusiasm. Like, you know, a thousand dollars back then was like a million now. Right?
Mark Allen:And so right away, a month less than a month after Kona, all of a sudden, had this sponsorship that was gonna afford me the ability to actually put in, if I wanted, full time training as a triathlete. And in in November of that same year was the first Nice International Triathlon, and a bunch of us went over there with team Jay of David. Scott Molina was on the team. Kathleen McCartney was on the team. Scott Tinley was on the team.
Mark Allen:A bunch of tops top age groupers. And I ended up winning that race that year, and it was it was, you know, a live event. It was produced for television. And so all of a sudden, you know, I had I've beaten two of the best guys in the world, Scott Tinley, Scott Molina, at a long distance race. The marathon the the run that year in Nice was a marathon.
Mark Allen:I had an incredible run. And, all of a sudden, it's sort of like I had truly arrived on the scene and I had the support to actually pursue this dream. And so that's that's really when things shifted.
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Justin Metzler:I feel like sometimes I'll just take that entire gel all at once or go half and half. It just allows me to get a little bit more carbohydrate and sort of just bump everything up and feel a little bit better in training. So if you want to try that for yourself, head on over to pfnh.com and use code big mets twenty twenty five for 15% off. What did the weekly training schedule look like when you sort of got into it and you were in a position to start winning some of these big long distance triathlete triathlons?
Mark Allen:The early years of training was pretty haphazard. You know, there were there was no there were no templates. There was no knowledge base of what you had to do as a triathlete to get ready for an Olympic distance, so a half Ironman, full distance Ironman. And I came from a swimming background. And as a swimmer, basically, you'd get in the pool, the coach would dream up the hardest workout they could think of.
Mark Allen:You'd go as hard as you could the whole way through, and then you go come back the next day and you do the same thing. And and so there was always there was this mentality that I came into the sport thinking that even in my easy workouts, at some point, I have to go race pace. And so I was looking at, let's say, what the top guys were were running for their 10 k in Olympic distance, and it's like, you know, they're somewhere around five minute pace. So even if I went for, like, an easy thirty, forty minute run, the last 400 meters or half a mile, I'd try to go five minute pace. And, you know, clearly, if you train like that, you get this real quick increase in fitness, but it's not sustainable to go that hard all the time.
Mark Allen:Clearly, was that r word recovery was not even in my vocabulary. And so I saw that, yes, I had some really good results, but I also, you know, had a lot of down moments where I get a little sick or I'd start to get a little niggling injury. And, you know, it was very up and down. And I thought this is not kinda like that linear sort of stair step up progression that I felt like I should be getting over a period of time. And so after a good year and a half of, you know, sort of stop start stop start stop start, I was introduced to Phil Maffetone who had been doing a lot of research on heart rate training.
Mark Allen:And, he said, you have to develop this endurance physiology, which is kind of like that fat burning engine. And to do that, you've got to slow down. Because when you're doing all that anaerobic work, you're stimulating the anaerobic system, which is important, but it will your body will selectively start to only develop that and not the endurance engine that you need. And so we went to the track, and he said, I want you to run at a 55 beats a minute. You know, gradually work up to that, and then we're gonna have we're gonna have you time three miles and see what your average pace is.
Mark Allen:And that's gonna be your aerobic pay your max aerobic pace, the maximum speed you can go at this point in time with the physiology that you have developed or not developed. And so, you know, 55 beats a minute. I'm thinking, okay. I don't know what that means. And so he gave me this heart rate monitor, which was actually like a gigantic box that was strapped to my chest with an ACE bandage, and the readout on it was this readout thing on the top.
Mark Allen:And so here I've got this this big lump on my chest, and I had it under my T shirt because I was embarrassed to have this thing. And I'm running along, and I'm kinda looking down my my shirt every now and then to see what my heart rate was. Well, right away, it pegged up at at a 55 beats a minute, and I felt like I was barely moving. You know? And so we timed three miles, and it was about an eight and a half, eight forty average pace for those three miles.
Mark Allen:And so, you know, I mean, now if I ran an eight and half minute mile at my aerobic pace, I'd be happy. But back then, I'm thinking, this is so slow. I won't beat guys that are even twice my age. And it was over three and a half minutes slower than I was trying to do in every run workout. You know?
Mark Allen:And so he said just for the next month and a half, just stick with this. And it'll be really slow, but then you're gonna start to get faster at these same heart rates. And, you know, I thought, alright. Well, I'll just try it. I have nothing to lose.
Mark Allen:You know? Let me just see how it works. And I did it. So I did that. And then toward the end, I had a half Ironman race, Hawaii that I did.
Mark Allen:And, I only did, like, a week and a half, two weeks of speed work going into it, and I completely blew everybody away. And I'm like, oh, okay. So there is something to this. So, anyway, you know, everything we did was sort of trial and error. Like, I did a lot of training with Scott Molina, Scott Tinley.
Mark Allen:And when one of those guys would start to sort of make a step up, the rest of us would be like, alright. What are you doing? What are you doing? You know? And and and we were pretty good.
Mark Allen:Like, we didn't turn every workout into a a race. You know, we could actually go out and kind of have social long rides or social long runs. But then we also had our group workouts that were really intense. And so, you know, sort of by happenstance, we did this really good mix of aerobic, anaerobic, threshold work stuff. It just wasn't scientific.
Mark Allen:And so, like, you know, if you fast forward to today's athletes, everything is measured. Everything is calculated. Everything is based on field tests or lab tests to determine, you know, your lactate levels and all that kind of stuff. And and so, you know, we were we were trying to solve the same solutions that people nowadays are trying to solve. What are those things?
Mark Allen:How do you build your endurance? How do you how fast can you go at any given distance before you completely blow up? You know, how much nutrition do you need to sustain a certain pace? How much nutrition can you take in before you start to feel like you're gonna barf all over the planet? You know, that kind of a thing.
Mark Allen:How fast can you go in the heat before your core temperature goes up so high that your your performance starts to drop off? And so we were not you know, people nowadays are not trying to solve any problem or or come up with any answer that we weren't. It's just that we had no way of measuring it. We just had to go by feel. And so it's like, okay.
Mark Allen:I think I can go this fast for eight quarters on the track, and you get to number six, and you're just like, kaboom. You know, like, oh, I guess I went too fast in those first three or four. You know? But nowadays, obviously, you know, you've got lactate. You've got all these measurements.
Mark Allen:And so the learning the difference between then and now is that the learning curve is much quicker. And and and with with a lot of the devices that we have to measure things now, you can associate a an effort feel with more, subtle levels of of of of performance, of exercise, of physiology, of sustainability, of power and pace, and all that kind of stuff. So things are just more refined now than they were back then. But we made a lot of mistakes, but we also learned a lot too. And with that need to sort of tap into the you know, your body's into intuitive self and to figure out, okay.
Mark Allen:This effort feels too hard, but then you see that you can sustain it. You realize, oh, it wasn't too hard. It's just my brain saying, no. No. No.
Mark Allen:No. This is not good for you, mister Allen. If you keep this up, something bad might happen. Well, nothing bad happens. It just hurts.
Mark Allen:You know? And so I think that also helped us when we race because, you know, there's so many things that influence, let's say, pacing or sustainability in in a race itself, like how fresh or tired are you, you know, compared to your ideal. Is is the weather hotter than you had anticipated? Are you more dehydrated than you anticipated? And, you know, with that intuitive sense, we were able to kinda, like, figure out on the spot in the moment that counted most where we could go hard and where it was where we needed to back off.
Mark Allen:Otherwise, we were gonna blow up. And I think that's why some of the racing that that we did back then was was super dynamic and super exciting because it wasn't planned. It was more like figuring it out step by step, pedal stroke by pedal stroke, all the way through the thing.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. %. It in some ways, was more entertaining as a fan as well because even five, ten years ago, athletes didn't have the same knowledge that they do now, and you see a lot of the athletes racing at a very similar level because they all have access to the same sort of information. They know their limits, and they know their limits in training, and so therefore, their performances are very predictable. I wanna talk a little bit more about the Maphtone Method, which over time it became known in some circles as the Mark Allen Method.
Justin Metzler:When you transitioned from using that big box on your chest and heart rate monitors became a little bit more actually usable in practice, Did you double down on the one fifty to one fifty five heart rate training, and did you do more of that over time and less of the let's just train with others and go by feel and sort of naturally find the balance? What did it look like maybe in the mid eighties, you know, late eighties when it became a little bit more accessible?
Mark Allen:Yeah. I was I was pretty structured with it. You know, I when when I did aerobic work, I did aerobic work and I didn't let myself overdo it. And, you you know, if you if you look back at kind of like our ancient physiology that enabled us to survive, if you look back at if you look at very traditional cultures, how they move, most of what they do is aerobic movement. And they do a little bit of anaerobic movement.
Mark Allen:So traditional cultures where you don't have cars, any of that stuff, you're surviving out in the wild, You know, people walk three or four miles a day just as a as a matter of of living. And every now and then, you know, you gotta chase, some game for food, and you're going really fast or something is dangerous and it's chasing you, and you've gotta get back to the cave and and put the rock across the door to be safe. And so, you know, when we do anaerobic stuff from our ancient genetics, it it's actually you know, it's that fight or flight that gets activated. You know, when when you're going really hard, your fat burning engine gets turned off. That that diesel fuel of fat takes more oxygen to break it down than carbohydrate.
Mark Allen:You you know, here comes danger. Here comes the saber tooth tiger. You gotta run to escape to survive, and, you know, you don't want diesel fuel at that point. You're like you don't wanna be going, hey, brother. Don't eat me for lunch.
Mark Allen:I'm just gonna saunter out of here. No. You wanna be like a rocket getting away. You activate the carbohydrate burning, which is high octane fuel. It doesn't take as much oxygen to break break it down to release the energy.
Mark Allen:You shut off your fat burning, but you stimulated all of the the high stress hormones in your body. Your body's going, this is danger. And and we all have this same physiology. Otherwise, we wouldn't be here. We'd be dead.
Mark Allen:We would have been eaten by something. And, you know, if you look inside the body, we have enough fat stored in our bodies to go about 500 miles. You only have enough carbohydrate to run about 20 miles. So clearly, we're set up humans are actually the best endurance athletes on the planet. We can run farther, faster than any other animal, including a horse.
Mark Allen:And, like, if you look at the Western states one hundreds 100 records, the human 100 record is faster than the horse 100 record in the Western States. So, anyway, so I really tried to sort of honor that because if, you know, like I said, I tried the going hard all the time type of training, and it got me quick results, but it also I want kept falling off the cliff. And so it's like, okay. This is not sustainable. And I you know, my mantra in training over the course of the year has evolved to be if I am training consistently, I am going to be getting better.
Mark Allen:And if I'm training consistently, it means that I am able to recover on a day to day, week to week, month to month basis without overdoing it and going into that complete explosion where I fall off a cliff and I'm exhausted or I get sick or I get injured and I'm not training. So consistency was the number one goal of what I was doing. And so, yes, for sure, I had hard workouts. We did track workouts. We did Fartlek trail runs.
Mark Allen:We did group rides where you were redlined. But then I also did a lot of training where I separated out all of that really hard stuff, and I just did that that steady aerobic training to develop that fat burning engine. What has changed since then is that, you know, we we all kinda went by the mantra, like, build your fat burning engine in the beginning of the year, do a lot of aerobic training January, February, March, and then sometime in April when, you know, the May and June races are coming up, that's when you start to throw in the speed work. And then you start getting both of those physio physiologies developed. Well, and it worked, and that's what everybody was doing.
Mark Allen:So we were on the same relative scale. And then just recently, they have shown that, actually, if you start out in the early season throwing in some anaerobic work, your v o two max goes up quickly. And then when you get closer to those races that you're doing, especially if it's a half or full and you need that aerobic physiology, you that's when you add in a lot more of your aerobic work. You have this huge engine that you're working with, and your aerobic pace is so much faster, and you develop so much more of that fat burning physiology quicker, and you shift away from that carb burning physiology, which is important to conserve your carbohydrates when you're doing, let's say, an Ironman. And so it's the same stuff, but just some of it has been shifted from when I was racing.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Very interesting. And, yeah, you know, it's great to hear very interesting to hear all of the things that you guys went to went through to get those conclusions. And, yeah, today, we're still, I think, evolving. And I think maybe in another thirty years time, we'll be looking back on what's happening today with a completely different perspective with all the information that we learn in thirty years time.
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Justin Metzler:So, if you're interested in checking out Bicycle, head on over to bicycle.com/endurancematters. That's buycycle.com/endurancematters, and use code endurance 30 for 30% off seller protection. I wanna talk a little bit more about the mental side and your mental approach, the mental approach that you took while you were racing. Obviously, it's very important to train hard. We've alluded to that already in this conversation.
Justin Metzler:How much time did you spend working on your mental approach during your racing years?
Mark Allen:I I actually spent a fair amount of time because I saw how important it was. And I saw how important it was in the very first triathlon I did. As a swimmer, I I kinda had this this tape that would go. So, like, if I was leading a race, you know, I could I could pretty much hold it. However, if somebody got just even a half a stroke ahead of me, this tape would start to play like, oh, they're faster than me.
Mark Allen:They're pulling away. I can't catch them. They're gonna win. I'm not gonna win. Like, I was never the guy who would come from behind.
Mark Allen:Right? Yeah. And so the very first triathlon I did, it was this series called the USTS, United States Triathlon Series. The very it was this was in June of nineteen eighty two, and the very first race was at Torrey Pines State Beach, which is North San Diego County. And, incredible event.
Mark Allen:Dave Scott was there. Scott Molina was there. Scott Tinley was there. You know, three of the best guys at the time were were competing. And, I came off the bike in fourth place, which blew me away, my first triathlon.
Mark Allen:And and I'm like, oh my god. I'm in fourth place? How is that even possible? You know? And so I start the run, and I'm all excited.
Mark Allen:And then about a mile into it, this this guy kinda just runs by me. And my swimmer state swimmer tape started to roll like, oh, he passed me. Therefore, he's gonna finish ahead of me, and I'm not gonna I'm I'm gonna be finishing fifth or sixth or seventh or who knows how many others are gonna pass me. And I paused for a second. And I said, wait a minute.
Mark Allen:We're only a mile, mile and a half into this run. It's not set in stone. You know, maybe something can happen. Maybe if I just relax, I can change this dynamic. You know?
Mark Allen:And the swimmer tape was cut right then and there, and he stopped making time on me. And about a mile later, I caught back up to him. And shortly after that, I pulled away, And I did finish in fourth place between behind Dave Scott, who was first, Scott Molina, who was second, and Scott Tinley, who was third. And, you know, on the outside, it looked like the big the big news of that day was like, here's this dude, Mark Allen, his first triathlon, and he finishes behind three of the best guys in the world. And it was kind of a foreshadowing of us becoming, you know, the big four.
Mark Allen:But on the inside, the most important piece of that day was that I saw that the thoughts that I was telling myself had such an immediate and profound impact on how my race was evolving or how it might end up. And so from that point forward, I realized this is an important piece for me because I don't know if I have the the biggest genetic toolbox in the world. But even if I do, if my mind isn't in the right place, if I'm telling myself negative stuff all the time, that's what's going to happen. And if I can shift that, that could be something really positive. And in the early days, I didn't have a real structure for that.
Mark Allen:In the second half of my career, I I ended up studying shamanism with a gentleman, Brandt Secunda, who teaches a tradition that comes from Central Mexico from the Uichel people in that area. And they have a very, very broad and deep sort of spiritual tradition that they go by. And a lot of their practices are based around getting your mind to just be quiet. They say when you're chattering and you're talking and you're telling yourself all this stuff and asking yourself all this stuff, usually it's negative. And just be quiet.
Mark Allen:And then you might hear the answers you're searching for in life. And so I really worked a lot with Brandt and the practices that he taught to just be able to just kinda go, alright. You know? So, like, here's an example. Like, you know, in the early part of my career, I was sort of thinking, okay, visualization and positive imagery and positive affirmations that I tell myself.
Mark Allen:And all of those things are good. You know? And so before I would have a big race, I would go through the race and try and, you know, visualize it and, you know, a lot that's sort of like something that a lot of us do. And, you know, I also tried to kinda have, like, my mantras. You know?
Mark Allen:Like, I'm smooth and light as a feather on the marathon or whatever it is. Right? You know? But I found that, like let's say I'm an Ironman, and I've I'm I've I've been in the lead, and all of a sudden, I I'm I blow up. I'm getting sick to my stomach.
Mark Allen:I'm walking. Days got past me once again. And, you know, first of all, if I could even think of those mantras and remember them in the middle of that race, I was doing a good job. But when I would tell them to myself, like, I'm light as a feather. Like, no.
Mark Allen:I'm not. I feel like a freaking elephant out here. I can't get both feet off the ground at the same time. So that just didn't work for me. You know?
Mark Allen:But I knew that I had seen that that, you know, when you're in that flow, you stop talking to yourself. You stop judging. Is this good? Is this bad? You're just in it, and you're engaged in it.
Mark Allen:And you're you're caught up in being the best you can be in that moment and the next and the next and the next. And there's no need to have an outcome come to you. You're just part of this thing that's going on, and you're you're yes. You're assessing. Do I need to eat?
Mark Allen:Do I need to drink? Do I need to speed up? Do I need to slow down? What do I need to do to optimize my performance right here? Relax my shoulders.
Mark Allen:You know? Whatever it is. But there's that quiet that's that's enveloping that entire experience. And when I'm in that space, it's it's almost like it's almost like you can see 360 degrees. It's like you're you're almost hyperaware, but it's a very relaxed space.
Mark Allen:And it's very powerful because you feel like you're connected to all possibility. And so even if you're, like, a million miles behind and somebody is pulling away from you, there's still possibility. And even if you don't catch them, it still has meaning to give everything you have and to, you know, know that when you cross the finish line that you manage those tough moments the best that you could on that day and that you've got the most out of yourself that you could on the day. There's only gonna be one person who who crosses that finish line in first. So does that mean that everybody else is a loser?
Mark Allen:Absolutely not. You know, you can still have you can still create your best moment, your greatest story. And sometimes the most empowering moments are when you could have just gone, this sucks. This is terrible. I shouldn't have come here.
Mark Allen:You know, Dave Scott won again. You know, you you're whining. Whining doesn't help. Okay. There's that quiet space.
Mark Allen:Now what can I do? I'm walking. Let me walk as fast as I can here. And then the energy comes back, and then I you can jog a little bit. Let me jog as fast as I can.
Mark Allen:And then you run out of gas, and gotta walk again. Let me walk as fast as I can. And these words come from real moments that I had to deal with in in the Ironman where I could be in the lead, and then I'd fall apart, and Dave would win, and and I wouldn't. And I'm I'm I have to I have to recraft my why, my purpose in that moment. Like, when things are starting to go downhill and maybe your your biggest dream is pulled from your hands and you you know you're not gonna achieve it, what's next?
Mark Allen:Do you just give up? Do you say it's not worth it? Do I quit? Do I start coming up with my excuses that I'm gonna tell everybody of why I had a lousy race? Or do I turn this around somehow and still have the best race I can?
Mark Allen:And when you do that, you learn a skill that's gonna help you in the moments that are your greatest moments. Because even in your greatest races, there's gonna be moments where you aren't feeling your best. But if you can get a % out of that 70% moment, you might still win the race. And so, you know, I tell the athletes that I coach, I said, the only bad race is one that you don't learn something from. Whether you whether you achieved a PR, you podiumed, you qualified for a championship, or you completely blew up, it's a waste of you you've you've missed the essence of it if at some point in the future, you don't reflect back and figure out what did I get out of that?
Mark Allen:What did I learn from it? Sure. And that's super empowering because then your your the richness of the triathlon experience of that racing experience is always gonna be there for you.
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Justin Metzler:So many of you know I had Achilles tendon surgery recently, and I've been using the lever over the course of the last 40 runs to work up to the point where I was able to run an hour on land today, so that was a big milestone for me. Additionally, I've realized over the course of that process how important this could be for keeping me healthy and getting in some speed work without that pounding on the road, so I'm definitely gonna be using the lever over the course of the next months and years as I continue to get back fit, healthy, and ready to race. So if you're interested in trying a lever for yourself, head on over to levermovement.com and use code endurance matters 20 for 20% off all devices. Yeah. I can relate to that 100%, and I feel like I'm sort of almost in that place right now where I've had some recent Ironmans, one in particular where I was winning the race at mile 22 and completely blew up and ended up finishing fourth.
Justin Metzler:And I feel like I'm at that point now where I'm trying to take on board that information and use it to power hopefully a win in the future. I'm curious to hear from your perspective if there was anything that you can recall from the space, that particular space, whether it was six months or a year from, quote unquote failure or performance that was below your original expectation of maybe winning or going from winning to finishing fourth or walking to the point in which you were able to overcome, learn, and win.
Mark Allen:Yeah. You know, one one thing to sort of keep in mind when you when you have a race that's really crappy, you know, you're winning. You're you're winning at mile 22, and then you fall apart and you end up fourth, you probably went home like you just went like you know, that sucked. That was terrible. It's okay to be disappointed.
Mark Allen:You know, it's okay to kinda let yourself just wallow in that disappointment for a while. You know, you don't have to go home and go, oh, well, that was really empowering because I finished the race, and I didn't give up. I gave everything I could, and I'm happy as a clam. No. You're not.
Mark Allen:You're pissed. You're bummed. You're disappointed. You're sad. You're you're devastated.
Mark Allen:Let yourself feel that for a while. And then after a while, you're gonna get tired of feeling that. And then at some point, you'll get enough distance from the race that the that immediate emotion from it is is becomes background noise. And when it sort of drifts into the background and it has less impact on you, that's when you're gonna be able to start to look at that race clearly and go, okay. What did I gain?
Mark Allen:Maybe I learned something about where I had some holes in my training, and I need to shore that up. Maybe maybe I just learned how to handle a difficult situation better. And that's goal too because, like I said, there's no race that's gonna be perfect all the way through. And so now I know that going forward, even in in those little glitchy moments where things aren't going great, I'm gonna be I'm still gonna be racing my best. And so give yourself that time because any solution or decision you you make in the heat of that post race emotion is not gonna be the right step forward.
Mark Allen:And and that goes for races where you excelled. You know, you finish a race that's just incredible and amazing, and you're just like you and your family and your team are just, like, over the moon excited, and you wanna go out in two weeks and do that next race that you hadn't planned on doing, and you go there and you blow up. That was not clarity. That was a decision based on emotion. And so even in the great races, give your self time to kind of let that immediate motion drift into the background.
Mark Allen:And then you'll be able to to look at things a little more clearly and go, okay. What is my next step? What is my next why? What is what are the things that I learned from that? And Sure.
Mark Allen:You you know, it it doesn't have to be anything earth earth shattering that you learn, but you'll learn something. You'll see something and go, okay. Yeah. I'm I'm able to deal with things a little bit better than than I could before. Or, you know, now I see what I have to do to actually do really well.
Mark Allen:And that's that can be a double edged sword. Like, you know, after I won Kona the first time, I thought, okay. Now I know what it takes. But this other side of that was like, oof. Now I know what it takes.
Mark Allen:Totally.
Justin Metzler:%. And that pressure can be quite a lot if you're going to repeat. Obviously, you did that very successfully. I'm curious, to hear your thoughts because as you know, the career of a professional sports person, it's a roller coaster. You've alluded to that already in this podcast of there's gonna be these peaks.
Justin Metzler:There's gonna be these valleys. I'm curious to hear if you found your true purpose and were, like, completely fulfilled by your career as a professional triathlete through your spiritual journey, through your racing journey. What's your take on that?
Mark Allen:Yeah. That's a great question. You know, so the so the first, I'd say, half of my career was really kinda defined by trying to win Ironman. Right? You know, like, the first six years that I raced Kona, I didn't win.
Mark Allen:And, you know, and it was it was not until the seventh try at trying to win that event that I finally was able to have the race that I that I really felt like I was capable of. And and then so after that first win, literally for almost an entire year afterwards, I would wake up in the morning going without feeling like, was that a dream? Like, oh, no. I did it. You know?
Mark Allen:I actually won it. I won the second one, and I that feeling would lasted for a couple months. And then after the third win, that feeling lasted for about a week or two. And I'm like, okay. How many Ironmans do I have to win to feel good about my life all the time?
Mark Allen:A thousand? You know? And and that was a real shifting point for me because I realized my my motivation to win Ironman had been satisfied. And now I'm faced with the question, why do I wanna go back? Why would I wanna go back?
Mark Allen:Why would I wanna put my body through all of that training? Why would I want to endure that much pain in training but then in the race itself? It's hard. It's hard stuff. And, you know, when you're when you're trying to beat the best in the world at one of the biggest races ever in our sport on one given day, there's no second chances.
Mark Allen:You have to do it on that day no matter what mood you're in. And that's hard. And I just couldn't come up with a reason. I was just like, winning is not going to motivate me to get out there and do all that shit again. And so that was a real shifting point in my career because going into the season that next year, I was at a real crossroads.
Mark Allen:Like, why am I even racing? You know? And I a number of things happened. And finally, I I realized I I wanna go back to I wanna go back and race for the same reasons that I did swim that I was a swimmer. I wanted to see how good I can get.
Mark Allen:And this has nothing to do with being the champion. I don't care where I finish. I just wanna see if I can get a little bit better because I knew that I could. And so the next three years were truly motivated by that very personal reason to see where where I could go with it. And it ended up that that level was good enough to also win those three years.
Mark Allen:And a lot of professionals, their why, they don't ever evolve it. And so the things that motivated them in the early part of their career, once those get satisfied, then all of a sudden they're left flat and they can't they lose it. They can't find that fire again, but it's because they're trying to race for the same reasons that that they did five years ago or ten years ago, and that just doesn't do it for you anymore. And so, you know, triathlon, if you do it long enough, is going to be a journey of life. It's sort of like life itself.
Mark Allen:You know? The things that are important to us when we were 10 or 20 are different than when you're 30 or 40, and it's just like that as a racer as well.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting. Yeah. So ultimately, you get to a point in which, you know, all athletes get to the point where they have to retire.
Justin Metzler:What was that moment for you where what was the impetus for retirement? Was it a physical decision, mental decision, or combination of the both?
Mark Allen:Yeah. Great question. You know, training, I like I have have mentioned, I I would train winters in San Diego, summers in Boulder, Colorado. So in both of those locations, I had a lot of contact with top athletes in a lot of different sports, you know, running, cycling, swimming, triathlon. And I had seen a lot of world class athletes push it too many years, and then all of a sudden, they're forced out of their sport because they want that one more dopamine hit of that incredible race.
Mark Allen:And they're past their prime, and they're never gonna get it. And then they're forced out because they get sick. They get injured. They're burned out. And and then they're they, you know, they they leave on a note that sort of it's not by choice, let's say.
Mark Allen:And so that was one of my overarching goals early in my career was when I retire, I wanna do it by choice because I know it's the right time. And I was sponsored by Nike for all those years that I was competing. And I asked my main person at Nike. I said, what do you see as the biggest challenge for athletes when they exit? And he said, one of the biggest challenges is that when you have been at the top of your sport and you move on, you're you are not gonna be at the top of whatever is next, at least in the beginning for sure, and maybe never ever again.
Mark Allen:And that can be really hard for people. And they're just not prepared for the amount of work that they have to put in to even maybe be average at something else. And so I had these two things in mind. One, I want to leave on my own terms. I don't want to be forced out because I'm sick, I'm injured, I'm burned out.
Mark Allen:And secondly, I was prepared knowing that whatever's next is going to be very different and that that will be Okay. And so, in in 1995, as I was preparing for what I knew would be my final Ironman, you know, I I kinda had my bag of tricks of things that I wanted to try in training and and ways that I wanted to prep to be ready to have my best race ever. And that year, I felt like I've pulled everything out of the bag, and there's no way that any even even if I win this year, there's nothing more I can do the next year to become better. And like I said, my goal at that point was to just keep trying to notch it up another level each time I went back. And so I I knew that year in 1995 that this is it.
Mark Allen:This is gonna be the best that I can bring into it. And in that personal journey of trying to be the best I can be, this is going to be the best that I can be at triathlon. And so before I even set foot on the start line Kona in 'ninety five, I knew this was going to be the last one. And so the decision was very, very clear for me. I was healthy.
Mark Allen:I wasn't burned out. I wasn't injured. And this is the best I can be. It's the time. It is the time.
Mark Allen:And so, you know, fortunately, I I I had I had a great race that year. And actually, it's ironic because I, you know, I kinda would always go and have a a chat with the island before the race. And, you know, I I left some offerings at this place that I like to go there and right by the water. And I said, help me let me just have one last great race. And, you know, when I said, let me have one last great race.
Mark Allen:In my mind, I'm thinking, parade lap, I'm gonna be so far ahead of everybody. Maybe set a course record, and it's gonna be, like, super easy. Right? Well, early on in the bike, there's this long downgrade when you're, I don't know, 20 some miles into it before you go down to Waikoloa. And it's this long, long, long, long, long downgrade.
Mark Allen:And the head the headwinds were so strong that I was in a thirty nine seventeen pedaling downhill. Wow. And I'm thinking, okay. Scratch the record thing, but let's have this be like a super cool parade lab. Right?
Mark Allen:And, you know, as you're probably aware, I came off the bike thirteen and a half minutes behind Thomas Hellriegel. You know, nobody had closed that gap that big of a gap to be the champ. And so all of a sudden, you know, on the outside, it's looking like I'm having the worst Ironman in my career. And eventually, you know, long story on that one, but I I was able to catch him and pass him around mile 23, and I went on and I won. And I'm thinking that was the hardest not only the hardest Ironman ever, but the hardest win of all of them.
Mark Allen:And I'm thinking, why didn't it have to be that hard? And then I realized, you know, you had that talk with the island, and you asked to have your greatest race ever. Had it been easier, you wouldn't have had to go to the depths that you had to, and it wouldn't have been your greatest race. That was your best race ever because you had to find corners of yourself and your personality and your strength and your steadiness and your calmness and your peace and your connection with the island and your ability to just stick with it moment to moment even though it looked impossible, had it not been that hard, you wouldn't have found all of those pieces. And with that, you're walking away with the greatest race you ever had.
Mark Allen:And so, you know, life just has that way of you you gotta watch what you ask for. You know? Because you might you might get it, but it's might not come in the form that you think you're gonna get it.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. What a beautiful culmination and such a aspirational thing to finish a career on. So amazing amazing story there. Before we finish up the podcast today, I've got six rapid fire questions. You ready to roll?
Mark Allen:Oh, love the number six though.
Justin Metzler:Okay. Cool. So it's it's all working out. What's the best or most impressive training session you ever did?
Mark Allen:The best there's two best that I ever had. There's three best. One was a track workout that I did over and over with Ken Sousa. Was eight by quarters with a half lap jog. And we'd ratchet it up every two.
Mark Allen:So, you know, two first two, you know, and by those last two, you're you're completely maxed. That was such a hard workout, but it was such an incredible workout. That was that was one. Another was the first time we ever did a a 50 mile ride from Boulder out to Wiggins and back. Oh, yeah.
Mark Allen:75 miles straight out through the cornfields, 75 miles straight back. You're so far out there in the cornfields, you can't even see the Rockies anymore. And here you are in Lycra, and you're going through these places where they're like, well, we put down alfalfa, but the hay ain't ready yet. You know? And they're like, I I don't I hope this isn't dangerous, you know, but it was so epic.
Mark Allen:And then and then the third one was that you know this place. It's a Switzerland trail up up in in the mountains. And it's it's high altitude, and it's about it's about 13 miles. And it's just this incredibly challenging run. And I I did it solo a couple weeks before I went to Kona in ninety nineteen ninety five, and I was just in this flow and this rhythm.
Mark Allen:And I finished, it was the fastest I had ever run it ever in all of my years in in in Boulder. And I'm like, wow. I didn't realize realize I was in this good a shape. Yeah. You know?
Mark Allen:And so sometimes those great workouts are ones that surprise you. You're not anticipating to sort of do a PR on a course that you know really well, and that stuck with me. And so when I when I came out of the energy lab, and I still hadn't caught Thomas Hellriegel that year, I thought and normally when you come out of the energy lab and you've got that long stretch to get back to town to the finish, it seems like forever I'm like, this is nothing. Remember what you did on the Switzerland Trail by yourself? You've got this.
Justin Metzler:That's huge. That's huge.
Mark Allen:Yeah.
Justin Metzler:Alright. Number two, what's the worst mistake you've made in your career? Can be a training mistake or something in a race that costed you largely?
Mark Allen:The biggest mistake I ever made was in 1987. I had a pending deal with Pan American Airways, Pan Am. They were gonna pay me a huge amount of money and give me, you know, a gazillion free first class miles if I won. And so I was racing for the money. And when I started to falter, all I could think about was how this big deal was not gonna happen because I wasn't gonna win.
Mark Allen:And so that was when I was like, you do not ever race for money ever again. Period.
Justin Metzler:Totally. Couldn't agree more with that. Alright. Number three, when you ride all the way out to Wiggins, what's your go to what was your go to gas station or like little shop snack to get you back to Boulder?
Mark Allen:Well, it was always hot, so, you know, it was always Gatorade. Usually, it was like a bag of Doritos because they were super salty. There were some long rides where my body was on so empty, I'd actually have a hamburger.
Justin Metzler:Oh, yeah. That'll get you going. Alright. Number four, who is the best athlete that you raced or coached but very few people have heard of or know?
Mark Allen:Wow. That's a good question. You know, some some of the best athletes that I've raced or coached are are the age group athletes. You know, they they'll they'll never be pro level, but they're such good athletes. And more than than being good athletes, they're they're good people that bring the best that they can into it.
Mark Allen:I I coached a guy for years named Leo DiCanyo, and he started in the sport. He he he's a Clydesdale. And he he started he did a sprint race in in Florida where he lived, and he got last place. And he goes, okay. That sucked.
Mark Allen:And he goes, next year, I'm coming back, and I'm doing better. And he got last place again. And he's like, okay. That really sucked. And he goes, I need a coach.
Mark Allen:And so he start he googled coaching, and my my name came up, and he contacted me. And I started coaching him, and and I was having him. He was like the go hard all the time guy, and I had was trying to get him to slow down and do some aerobic stuff. And he questioned every single thing that I had him do. But I could tell, like, he was, you know, he was a pain in the ass in the beginning.
Mark Allen:But I could tell it it was more like he just wanted to understand why he was doing this stuff. And so I was very patient, and he did some races and actually started to do well. And then he started winning the Clydesdale class on a lot of events. And one thing led to another and he ended up doing some Olympic and then some half and then some folds. And he he eventually went to Kona and crossed the finish line.
Mark Allen:And Leo DiCanyo crossing the finish line, still Clydesdale wait, was one of the most iconic and and emotional moments for me to to realize, here's this guy that he he will never be the fastest guy out there. He's just not built to be. But he has the passion of the top people in the sport, and he gets as much out of it, if not more than just about anybody else. And it was a personal journey, and he completed it, and he was part of the fabric of of Iron Man, which is just all about the stories anyway. Amazing.
Mark Allen:Yeah. So that that's that's one of the cool things.
Justin Metzler:Alright. Cool. Final one here. If you had to pick a nineteen eighties triathlon fashion trend to be mandatory in 2025, what would you pick?
Mark Allen:Oh, the Speedos. You gotta race in a Speedo.
Justin Metzler:Gotta do it. Know, actually,
Mark Allen:the like, some of the coolest photos I think were when Dave, Scott, and I were racing each other, and we had on running shorts and singlets. Like Yeah. They just looked kinda cool. You know? I agree.
Mark Allen:I
Justin Metzler:agree. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Mark. This was so insightful and cool to hear some of those stories and just really appreciate you coming on. Thank you very much.
Mark Allen:Alright. I hope everybody enjoyed it. Cheers. See you
Justin Metzler:in the next episode. Peace.
Mark Allen:Alright.
