Hannah Shell: Working Class Professional Gravel and MTB Racer
Welcome to another episode of the Endurance Matters podcast. I'm your host, Justin Metzler. And today in studio, I have Hannah Schell. Welcome to the show.
Hannah Shell:Thank you. It's great to be here.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Well, I appreciate
Justin Metzler:you coming on. It's been a busy, twenty four hours flying in last night Yes. 1AM. But, yeah, making the time for this. We really appreciate it.
Justin Metzler:But I start off the, podcast with an icebreaker, hard hitting question. My question for you today is what is worst? Double headwind or double flat tire?
Hannah Shell:Probably a double flat tire.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Unrepairable kind of.
Hannah Shell:It's kind of unrepairable. Like, unless it seals, most people aren't carrying two tubes with them.
Justin Metzler:I'm with you. Yeah. Yeah. You can maybe stop in hygiene or something and maybe get a little of a pump to get you home, but I don't know. A double double flat's pretty tough.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Or do you even get flat tires now?
Hannah Shell:Rarely, actually. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:Me too. Yeah. Well, cool. I see if I feel like I see you out on the road, like, all the time riding. You're noticeable in your feed helmet.
Justin Metzler:I notice all the feed athletes, and I, like, am always, you know, in the zone time trialing right away. But, you know, we've got a mutual sponsor in Shimano, and, yeah, the the athlete rep Meredith said you'd be a great guest. So, yeah, excited to have you on the show today.
Hannah Shell:Yeah. It's great to be here. Yeah. Thank you for having me.
Justin Metzler:For sure. Well, why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about, like, who you are for those that don't know? On the show, we have we interview athletes, you know, in all endurance sports. So mostly triathletes, a lot of professional runners, and we've had Alexei Vermeulen on as a professional cyclist. So I'm really, like, interested in sports outside of triathlon and and running, like, including gravel cycling.
Justin Metzler:So can you explain a little bit about, like, yeah, who you are and what you do?
Hannah Shell:Yeah. So my name is Hannah Schell. I do consider myself predominantly a gravel cyclist. But starting in 2021, I began competing in more like endurance mountain bike races as well. So I've switched to off road in 2020.
Hannah Shell:I started my career racing on the road, predominantly criteriums. And yeah, since switching to DIRTT, I've just kind of fallen in love with the longer format of racing. I like the more privateer style approach in the gravel world. I think it's just a little bit easier for someone like me that I also have a full time job, and I'm married, a little bit older. So being on the road team started to get to the point where I was like, I want to book my own travel and stay at my own place.
Hannah Shell:So yeah, that's kind of been my focus. I've competed twice in the Grand Prix. And this year, I'm in the Wild Card Series. So hopefully, we'll earn a spot after Unbound. And then, yeah, just like right now, focused on getting ready for Unbound.
Justin Metzler:Cool. Yeah. That's coming up. When's Unbound?
Hannah Shell:May it's like May 31.
Justin Metzler:Okay. Coming up for sure. So can you tell us a little bit about how you got into cycling in the first place, maybe a little bit about your upbringing?
Hannah Shell:Yeah. For sure. So I was a dancer in high school, which is probably a fairly unique entry into endurance sports. But I competed in show choir, which in I grew up in Iowa. And in the Midwest, show choir is a really big deal.
Hannah Shell:And if you're not familiar with it, it's kind of like Glee Club, if you have watched that series. After my senior year of high school, I wasn't continuing on with dance. And so I wanted something to stay fit in college and started running, which very quickly led to a running injury. And by the time I graduated from college, I was literally on crutches at graduation because I had a torn labrum and was quite a long recovery from that. So I was pretty sad to not be running anymore.
Hannah Shell:And my dad has been a cyclist his whole life, so he gave me one of his old bikes. And I had moved to St. Louis for my first job, met a triathlete that I worked with, actually. And she invited me to a criterium where I got third. And I was like, oh, this is super cool.
Hannah Shell:Like, I had never envisioned that I would be good enough at any sports to be, like, placing on the podium. So that it was kind of, like, full on after that. I just I really jumped headfirst into it. And like I said, started racing Criteriums on the road. I raced for Papa John's and for DNA, and then switched to dirt in 2020.
Justin Metzler:Cool. Could you tell when you switched over to running that there was some endurance sport talent in there? Or was it not until you hopped on the bike that you realized that that was kind of like a place where you were going to succeed?
Hannah Shell:I think I could tell. Like, I was not when I switched to running, I was not following like a formal training program. I actually just had the Nike app, which if you I don't know, like I don't know what this looks like today because I don't run at all anymore. But it would kind of like suggest workouts for you.
Justin Metzler:Okay. AI before AI or something?
Hannah Shell:I mean, I'm sure it was not AI. I'm sure it was very like if you said you were training for a half marathon, it would just like give you kind of like a pre built program. But I was always comparing myself to my roommate who was also starting to get into running, and I knew I was a lot faster than her. And so I was like, okay. Maybe I have some, like, natural skill here.
Justin Metzler:Nice. Yeah. That's a pretty good good entry, you know, level comparison straight away. Where where are from in Iowa?
Hannah Shell:I'm from Des Moines.
Justin Metzler:Okay. Cool. I went to University of Iowa, so Iowa City. Did you? Yep.
Hannah Shell:No way.
Justin Metzler:Yep. Midwest guy. I grew up in Illinois, then I went there for college.
Hannah Shell:Okay. Where out in Illinois?
Justin Metzler:Glendale. I
Hannah Shell:don't know where that is.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Anyways, it's like Chicago Suburbs. Nice. Well, cool. I want to talk a little bit more about Okay.
Justin Metzler:So you get into road cycling. You get into the Crit series. Like, what did you what was that whole world like? Was it your full time gig at the time? Were you still working in St.
Justin Metzler:Louis? What was sort of like the road scene?
Hannah Shell:Yeah. So I worked full time until 2019. And I worked for the Federal Reserve, so it was a fairly intense, like, forty hours a week in the office job. It was very hard to balance. And twenty eighteen was kind of my first year racing for, like, an elite team where there were contracts involved and race schedules, and it was really hard to balance the team's requirements along with work.
Hannah Shell:I ended up taking a lot of, like, unpaid leave just to make things work. And in terms of, like, the environment on the road itself, like, road cycling is it's funny because gravel is getting so competitive now, but road cycling is competitive in a different way. There's so much pressure to win, and that really was wearing on me by 2019. I was I was kinda like so I had quit my job. I was racing for DNA, which is a fabulous team, fabulous program, but there's always the pressure to win on the roadside.
Hannah Shell:And it was really taking the fun out of it.
Justin Metzler:Yep. When they how does that process work? Did do you just get results and move your way through the ranks and someone like DNA picks you up and says, hey, we're gonna give you this contract. We need you to, you know, execute on these sort of results or deliverables. Like, what does that what does that look like?
Hannah Shell:Yeah. So when I started, there were four categories with USA Cycling for Women. So you start as a cat And then as you win or place well enough in races with enough entrants, you earn points. And then those points move you up through the categories. So what's crazy for women and this still exists today is when you go from a Category three to a category two, you go from purely amateur racing to racing with professionals.
Hannah Shell:So when I moved up from a three to a two and I did this really fast. I did this in four months, which was a mistake. But I was, you know, eager to eager to move up. I went to Tulsa tough as my first race as a two, and that was terrifying. I didn't finish the first day because there were just so many crashes around me.
Hannah Shell:I had no idea, like, how to position within the field. And I remember calling my coach and being like, I cannot do this. Like, this is crazy. But I continued to work at it. And I think that once you reach a category two, that's when you're jumping in with the actual pro teams.
Hannah Shell:And that's where you start to get opportunities to draw attention to yourself in terms of how you're racing, how you're positioning, decisions that you're making. And so that was really my focus in 2017. I was on a local domestic elite team. And we had kind of like a mix of athletes that were older and just wanted to be able to jump into the professional races but weren't really looking to get picked up by a team, and then younger athletes that wanted to get picked up to a bigger team. And so we would go to the races, and we would have goals of just being aggressive in the race or trying to help each other in the sprint finish, do small lead outs, just things to try to get our names on the map.
Hannah Shell:And I think we actually did a pretty good job of that. I guest rode for IS Corp halfway through that year. And so at the time, that was Sam and Sky Schneider, and they were winning everything. So it was a really cool opportunity. Again, I learned a lot about racing.
Hannah Shell:And then when it came time for contract negotiation in September, I did have kind of multiple teams that I was speaking with. But the one that was most appealing to me was Papa John's because they had the budget to fly the team members in and out of each race. And for me, I'm like, I can't spend time being in a team van.
Justin Metzler:Sure.
Hannah Shell:So, yeah, that's like, there's more that goes into it. There's like anything else, there's networking and there's, you know, like, I would always tell new riders that, like, you're always being interviewed, whether you're at the airport or whether you're just, like, getting ready for the race in the field. Like, the other riders are constantly assessing you for, like, do we want her as a teammate? Like, is she someone that's going to fit in with the culture of our squad? So I think that's a big part of road cycling is just being aware that the eyes are on you whether you know it, if you're a strong rider, and making sure that you are kind of presenting yourself in a good way.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Is there a tipping point for you there where it just becomes too much, too high pressure, and you're you need to change?
Hannah Shell:Yes. So, like yeah. Like, so DNA was, like, a a very professional team. And they had a I'm trying to think. I think we had 12 team members.
Hannah Shell:And so when you're going to races, a lot of times you can only race six. So it's like how you're performing at the early season races determines the roster for the big races for the rest of the year. And I had a good early season, so then I was on the roster for, like, Tulsa tough. But we didn't have a very good performance at Tulsa. And having those meetings with the team where there was a lot of pressure applied to each and every one of us of, like, you messed this up.
Hannah Shell:This was wrong. And for me, I was just like, man, like, this is a really hard environment. And I just I just didn't thrive in it. I think a lot of riders do, but for me, I just didn't.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Do you think that what was the decision to shift over to stay in cycling? Was it because you hadn't been in the sport that long, and you still felt like there was a lot of untapped potential? And did you see other riders at the time going through a similar scenario and just quitting cycling altogether?
Hannah Shell:Well, I met my husband, Jake, in 2019. And he had started a privateer criterium racing program. And so I was watching what he was doing, and I was like, man, this looks fun. He just has his own sponsors. He picks his own schedule.
Hannah Shell:He goes to races. And he meets his own goals, but he's also providing a return for his sponsors through social media. And so to me, that was really interesting. And that was kind of a new model at the time. Like, Colin Strickland was doing it.
Justin Metzler:Sure.
Hannah Shell:So Jake had just started doing it. Maybe maybe Amity was Amity Rockwell and Alison Tetric. But like there were not very many people that were following that privateer model. And so when I decided not to return to DNA in 2020, Jake started speaking to his sponsors and asking if they would like to have both a male and a female representing the brand. And for the most part, we had a really positive response.
Hannah Shell:And so that really kind of kept me in the sport. But then as we began to discuss with these sponsors, hey, what do you guys want from us this year? What can we provide for you? They all said, we just want you guys to do some gravel racing. And so we were on Giant at the time, and so we got gravel bikes from them and started doing you know, there weren't any races in 2020, but we just started doing a lot of the, like, Strava races around Boulder, trying different gravel style things, and I've just really enjoyed it.
Hannah Shell:Like, the longer format of racing seemed to work really well for me.
Justin Metzler:Yeah, cool. Was there enough meat on the bone at the time through that privateer system straight away for you to still not have a quote unquote real job? Or did you have to, when you left that professional cycling world, go back to corporate life or whatever?
Hannah Shell:Yeah, great question. Yeah, so I did start working again full time. And I started consulting. So it was a lot easier to balance than what I had before, because my consulting job is 100% remote. And through that time, so I started working in consulting in late twenty nineteen and continued through 2022.
Hannah Shell:And then I went full time racing again because we were starting to bring in more sponsor income. And with the Grand Prix, obviously, there was, like, a new level of professionalism in the sport. And I kind of found out that I just I didn't like it this time. Like, I preferred having something outside of racing that kept me a little bit more balanced where I had goals that were less dependent on, like, the luck of the draw. So I still work full time.
Hannah Shell:I say full time, but my job is super flexible. They kind of allow me to, like, take time off when I need to for racing and training, and I'm hourly. So anytime that I take, obviously, I'm not paid for that. So I don't have vacation or anything. But it's a really, really good structure, and I'm really grateful for it.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. That's amazing. I feel very similarly, and I feel like the professional athlete sort of is always at a bit of an internal war with that because the, you know, the other athletes in the space want you to believe as though you need to be like eat, sleep, train. But there are personalities out there kind of like myself where I feel as though if I'm just so focused on eat, sleep, train, like, becomes too much for me, I need, like, outlets like podcast here and, know, my coaching business or whatever that like help me diversify and get my mind out of like just thinking about myself twenty four seven. So it's like refreshing to hear athletes come in and say that they feel, you know, similarly in that regard.
Justin Metzler:And I'm curious as well because right now, I mean, I think, you know, 2020 and beyond, I think the model for the professional athlete has changed so much, and it's so much more about social media and about those, you know, the deliverables in addition to just going to the races. Is that something that you you like and you you sort of like immerse yourself in, or do you just wanna work with brands you wanna work with and your job pays you know, keeps the lights on and you just wanna go ride?
Hannah Shell:So it's really a mix. Like, without our sponsors, we couldn't afford to race at the level that we do. So our sponsors help us with, like, our travel expenses. They help cover the gap when I'm taking a week off to go to a race because, obviously, I'm losing that income from my job. And then we prefer to have social media for our sponsors because I think it's a that's a constant.
Hannah Shell:That's something that we can control, and we can make sure that they're benefiting from the partnership regardless of how we're performing in any given year. So in 2023, for example, I started struggling with a lot of iron issues. And it's been a long comeback from that until this year that I've really started to feel back to myself. So I was really grateful for social media in that time because I was like, I'm not going to be on any podiums this year. I'm still going to be able to do events, and I'm still going to be able to talk about training and talk about this process.
Hannah Shell:But without social media, I wouldn't have been able to continue providing that exposure for the brands I work with. So I view it as a positive.
Justin Metzler:Yep. %. I I I view it as a positive thing as well. And I think it's also part of, like, yeah, just what we all sign up for as professional athletes in 2025. It's just sort of part of part of what it is.
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Justin Metzler:I feel like sometimes I'll just take that entire gel all at once or go half and half. It just allows me to get a little bit more carbohydrate and sort of just bump everything up and feel a little bit better in training. So if you want to try that for yourself, head on over to pfnh.com and use code bigmets2025 five for 15% off. I think, like, in addition, I guess, when you're reaching out to new brands and saying, hey. I you know, I'm a who this is who I am.
Justin Metzler:What is your pitch to them?
Hannah Shell:Well, I usually sell myself as a relatable athlete because I would say that I'm not, like, someone that has this tremendous natural ability. Like, I do have to work really hard. I am very meticulous about my training and about my nutrition and how I approach these events. And I'm still, like, doing everything that I'm doing. Like, at Sea Otter, I finished thirty first and had my best normalized power ever for six hours.
Hannah Shell:And so it's like a lot I think a lot of women are experiencing that too where we're like, oh, we're like the fastest we've ever been, but our placing is exactly the same. So
Justin Metzler:Yeah. You need to find other avenues to maybe differentiate yourself from the rest of the pack, which is not always easy. And it's interesting to hear your perspective as a cyclist say that I have runners coming in saying the exact same thing. Triathletes are feeling the exact same way. Is there anything in gravel cycling that you can pinpoint right now that's sort of like, you know, made this ascension happen in terms of the speed and the pace?
Hannah Shell:I mean, I think that women's racing across the board is growing. And I think the Tour de France Femme has helped a lot with that because now we are seeing women at the very top level of the sport finally get the coverage and recognition that they deserve. I'm not saying that it's perfect. There's definitely, of course, still room to improve. But just the existence of that race and the coverage of it, I have seen the sport improve at all levels.
Hannah Shell:I also think that the lifetime Grand Prix for gravel specifically has really grown the sport in The US. And I know that a lot of people I mean, and myself included have criticized some of the decisions that Lifetime has made. I think that every decision they make is with a a positive intention. And whether the outcomes of that are always as they intended it to be, it's really hard when you're the first people doing something in a space. But, yeah, I think I think that the Grand Prix has grown the sport tremendously.
Hannah Shell:I think that also as Life Time has given women their own race and been able to cover that race specifically, it's just drawn more attention to the sport. And then with the decline of road racing in The US, if you are an athlete that wants to get the experience of racing at the highest level, gravel is probably your best option right now.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Why do you think so many people are gravitating towards gravel? Like, why is road cycling decreasing in popularity and gravel cycling popping off so much?
Hannah Shell:Well, I mean, one would just be from the events that are available. I know that a lot of road events have died off throughout the years. Like, if I look at what my schedule was when I was road racing, those most of those events don't exist anymore. It was like like Joe Martin and the Colorado Classic, and like, they're gone now. Gravel events are just easier to put on.
Hannah Shell:I also think that with there's like no structure right now in gravel racing. They're starting to become like a okay. You you need to apply to be in the elite field for this race. But I can't remember who I was talking to the other day that was like, athletes that don't really know what their ability is can jump into these races and can finish in the top 10. And in road racing, as we discussed at the beginning, that wasn't possible.
Hannah Shell:Like, you did have to go through more of a category structure and that well, I think it is important for safety. I also think that it does kind of discourage some people from getting into the sport.
Justin Metzler:Sure. And why do you think the brands are loving gravel so much? Is it only is it simply because that's their only option in American cycling right now, or is there something that they're seeing in terms of influence that they find really attractive?
Hannah Shell:So what I love about gravel is that it didn't start as a professional sport. Gravel started as a grassroots, like your everyday person was doing it, and maybe some professionals were. But it was really started with the everyday, like, just your average Joe cyclist. And because of that, when professionals started to get into the field, there was already this huge fan base for gravel and a way to connect with the people that are actually, like, supporting this sport differently than in any other type of race. Because now as a professional well, at least when I started as a professional, if I'm going and lining up with a Cervelo Espero, there's thousands of amateurs around me that are seeing like, oh, she, you know, is racing at the front of the race, and this is the bike that she's on.
Hannah Shell:So I think that something that is really important to, like, attribute as a gravel cyclist is that we are not responsible for the growth of this sport. Like, it started with the average Joe, and they're the they're the reason that gravel is what it is today. I also think that the structure of sponsorship in gravel, how it's predominantly privateer as opposed to team, works a lot better for brands. The ones that I've spoken to prefer the ability to have the relationship with the athlete directly. Because when you're on a team, you're kind of told what equipment you're riding.
Hannah Shell:And you might genuinely love that equipment, but it's still hard for the brand to connect with you personally. Whereas like for Jake and I, every single one of our sponsors is a brand that we genuinely believe is the best product for us.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Yeah. I I completely agree. And there's so many parallels between the gravel world and the triathlon world. Yes.
Justin Metzler:Because as triathletes, we're privateer athletes. There's very few triathlon teams out there where you're contracted to ride a certain product. So all of our relationships, my wife, Jeannie, and I like the same thing where we just have personal relationships with the marketing rep. And we can tell them what we need, what we like, what they can come to us and tell us exactly what they need from us. And I think that's that's really huge.
Justin Metzler:And additionally, it's the same structure in the sense of like, we're out there racing at the front of the race and the amateurs follow behind us and they're doing the exact same thing. And I think there's so much power and value in that. And if you look at the Tour de France or even a Criterium race, like, have spectators, but the fan base isn't there. It it sometimes isn't there. Oftentimes, it's not at the same volume, whereas, like, if we have this shared experience as one amateur and pro, like, those people become fans because we have the shared experience.
Justin Metzler:So it's cool, and I I just see those those parallels happening. One thing that you did mention was, like, this grassroots feel. A lot of people talk about the spirit of gravel. Now with the injection of all this money and the lifetime Grand Prix and, you know, there is more professionalism coming into the sport, like, what are you seeing? Is there a shift?
Justin Metzler:Is it still grassroots? Is there a still spirit around it?
Hannah Shell:Yes. I think there is. And I think that as professionals, we should continue to support the local and independent events because those are the ones that are really keeping the spirit of Gravel alive. So the lifetime events are awesome. And I think that they are inspiring to everyone.
Hannah Shell:Whether you're a professional or whether you are like an average cyclist, you're seeing these events with this amazing live coverage. And they're super challenging. They're kind of famous with all their different aspects. And so those are great for inspiration. But in terms of, like, where the sport is really staying alive, I do think it is more like the local grassroots races where there's less rules, there's less like, it's not as hard or expensive to get into these events.
Hannah Shell:And you can just go and not have the pressure of like, oh, I'm trying to ride 200 miles. You know, you're at your local hometown race and you're discovering that gravel roads are really fun to ride on. And it's also cool that you can just jump into an event and be a part of this community.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Where does where do those local grassroot events fit in for someone like yourself or a professional cyclist with the existence of the lifetime Grand Prix where, like, that seems to be the North Star and, like, the gold standard of professional racing right now?
Hannah Shell:Yeah. I think that they're great training stimulus. So this weekend, I'm going to Cotoit or Colorado to Utah. So that's a 25 mile race and it starts in Fruta. And for me, that's like, this is a great opportunity to go out and test my fitness, test my equipment, test my race strategy leading into Unbound.
Hannah Shell:And then there are independent events that have really big prize purses. So Gravel Worlds, for example, like I'm a part of the promoter team there, just as as a disclosure. But like we have a hundred thousand dollar prize purse for the professional field, but we're still a local independent race. So I think that you can both find races that are like, hey, this is kind of a training event where I'm going to support the community and also just test some stuff out. And then there are other races where you can go and target it as an event that you really want to win.
Hannah Shell:It can be an A race. And a lot of times like SBT, for example, is still an independent race. So those ones are cool to see that they're still as big of a priority on the pros' schedules. And I hope they stay that way.
Justin Metzler:Do you envision a world where Lifetime scoops those up and folds them into the Grand Prix and the Grand Prix becomes 15 races?
Hannah Shell:No. I don't think that those races in particular would ever sell to Lifetime. And I don't know that Lifetime would want to buy them. Like, I I just I don't know what the logistics of that are. Not that they're not all friends.
Hannah Shell:I think everyone in this world is, like, supportive of each other. But, yeah, I think that what would be more likely is that a third party, like, might try to bring some of these races together into, like, a gravel omnium. Like like Gravel Earth series. True. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but so Gravel Worlds is a part of Gravel Earth series now.
Hannah Shell:Still an independent race, but if you wanna race in a series format, you have the opportunity to do so.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Is there competitiveness, you know, at the top between the people who run Lifetime Grand Prix and maybe the individual race runners where they're all competing for a piece of people's attention. You know, people can only race so many times a year and if you're traveling across the country, like people's budgets are only so big. So like in triathlon, for example, Ironman has a pretty strong hold on, you know, the the marketplace in North America, and there have been brands that have come in and tried to compete, but there's just so many races, Ironman races, that people just end up choosing those. And so is there a world where Lifetime says, okay, we're gonna put on 20 races, and then these other races that are independent maybe fall away?
Hannah Shell:I haven't asked this question to Lifetime in a few years, but the last time I asked, they are actually losing money on most of their races, especially the smaller ones. So I would be surprised if Lifetime expanded more into events. I think that probably their focus is on building up the ones that they have now. And I think that's a good strategy because if you look at the Grand Prix, it's like six events. And and, obviously, they have more than that.
Hannah Shell:But building those up, they're well spaced throughout the calendar. I think that's a a good approach for them. And then for the other races, like, of course, there's a competition there, but there's also, like, a courtesy between events of, hey, like, we're not gonna schedule something on the same date as your event because a, that would be bad for the person that's moving because they're not gonna get as many attendees. But like, no one wants to be pitted against each other like that.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely an interesting thing in the space. I'm curious for you as a racer, like, how much are you how motivated are you to race in the Grand Prix versus these other races? And how valuable is it for you and your brand to place in a non Grand Prix event versus maybe get a tenth in a Grand Prix race?
Hannah Shell:That's a really good question. I think the Grand Prix is really valuable. I think that there is a lot of really great marketing around it, and I I would have to, like, credit that to Lifetime. The brands that we work with are usually at the Grand Prix races. They're gonna be at the expo, and those are their big activations.
Hannah Shell:And so for them, they're like, hey, whether you're in the Grand Prix or not, we want you at these events.
Justin Metzler:So
Hannah Shell:for me, I'm like, well, if I'm going be at the events anyways, I want to be a part of the series that's tied to them. And I also think that there's just a level of prestige associated with the Grand Prix that everyone wants to be able to say they're one of the I think it'll be 25 cyclists this year that's a part of the series. So so that's a big part of it. But that being said, like, winning races that are not on the Grand Prix can be just as big of a deal to brands. Yeah.
Hannah Shell:Especially if there's a really deep field, having a result at those events, I think that that matters.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. I think winning at the end of the day is marketable Yes. Regardless of where it where it comes from. And so I think, yeah, like, there's definitely a balance there and maybe carving out a season calendar that sets you up to be able to be in as many Grand Prix races as you possibly can, but also still maybe get those Instagram worthy shots that proves your credibility of being a winner. Yeah, for sure.
Justin Metzler:I want talk a little bit more about your training and maybe how you balance your you said you have lot of flexibility, but I'm curious about what your training looks like in addition to working full time. So can you elaborate a little bit just generally in terms of maybe who you're do you have a coach right now? Yeah. Yeah. Who's your coach?
Hannah Shell:Greg Henderson.
Justin Metzler:Okay. Cool. Yeah. And what I guess, like, does your training look like from a, you know, weekly layout perspective? And what are the things that you're focusing on?
Justin Metzler:And I guess third part to the question is like, how much do you feel like you're sacrificing in terms of your training by having a full time job?
Hannah Shell:So what I say is that you're typically sacrificing recovery instead of training. Because whereas like someone that doesn't have a full time job, they're gonna finish their training ride and they're gonna like focus on getting a meal right away and like sitting in their recovery boots or taking a nap. When I finish my rides, usually, I'm like, okay. I need to go jump into a meeting. And then, like, depending on how that meeting goes, hopefully, I'm eating within the hour.
Hannah Shell:But sometimes, like, work gets crazy, and I end up sitting in my chamois two hours later. And I'm like, man like, I'm, like, texting my husband. I'm like, can you please make me lunch? Yeah. So it's it usually ends up being a sacrifice in terms of recovery.
Hannah Shell:I still manage to train, like, twenty to twenty five hours a week. That includes, like, cycling and strength training. And, like, what I work on with my coach is usually Mondays are, like, a full rest day or an easy day. And during the week, try to keep rides around, like, the three hour mark. Sometimes, like, I'm going into unbound, so this is the biggest training month for me of the year.
Hannah Shell:So, of course, we're gonna have rides that are longer, and I just kind of work with my boss around that so they know that they all know that I do this crazy race that's 200 miles and that this month is gonna be a lot more time away for me. I think that that's one of the best things about my job. It's just that I have the flexibility to be able to say, I'm gonna take this afternoon off and do a five hour ride on a Wednesday.
Justin Metzler:What can you elaborate a little bit on what it is that you do exactly for work?
Hannah Shell:Yeah. I'm a project manager. So I work for Mitsubishi Electric Automation. And we build robot arms, so factory automation. I work specifically on more IT related projects.
Hannah Shell:So most recently, we redesigned our website, and so I was managing that project.
Justin Metzler:How excited are you about going to work and getting those projects done versus just getting excited for your ride?
Hannah Shell:I'm definitely more excited about training and riding than I am about work. But at the same time, like, work is really rewarding. And I it's not so much that I love what I do, but I love the people that I get to work with. I started at this company in 2023 when they were going through a big implementation of their basically, their, like, company operating system. It's called SAP.
Hannah Shell:And through that, I just got to learn that, like, my boss and the other project managers are like, they're really good at what they do, and they're also just really good people. So I enjoy getting to be a part of a company where everyone is kind of like on their a game.
Justin Metzler:Sure. That's cool. It's like high performance mindset, you know, in like business and sport. I like people like that. You've mentioned that there were two points in your career as a cyclist where you've had those little breaks from working full time.
Justin Metzler:Do you foresee a third one coming? Maybe like if you really have some great results and bigger sponsorship contracts come in, do you see that as a potential avenue for you?
Hannah Shell:No. I don't foresee it. But I think that we're in a really uncertain economic environment right now, especially as a contractor. I'm very aware that tariffs will impact our business. And if we've already had several rounds of layoffs, and it's quite possible that the next time a round of layoffs comes up, my name would be on the chopping block.
Hannah Shell:And if that were to happen, I don't know if I would look for something else right away just because it's it's hard to find something with the flexibility that I'm asking for. And that's a huge sacrifice that I make to be able to train and race is like, I can't just take every job that I'm interested in that comes across with the, like, LinkedIn requests.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I totally get that.
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Justin Metzler:So many of you know I had Achilles tendon surgery recently, and I've been using the lever over the course of the last 40 runs to work up to the point where I was able to run an hour on land today, so that was a big milestone for me. Additionally, I've realized over the course of that process how important this could be for keeping me healthy and getting in some speed work without that pounding on the road, so I'm definitely gonna be using the lever over the course of the next months and years as I continue to get back fit, healthy, and ready to race. So if you're interested in trying a lever for yourself, head on over to levermovement.com, and use code endurancematters20 for 20% off all devices. I want to definitely circle back a little bit more to the specifics of the training and the balance that you kind of need as a cyclist who's focusing on gravel and mountain bikes. So I guess the first question that I have is how much of your training distribution goes on a gravel bike, a road bike, versus a mountain bike?
Hannah Shell:Yeah. Good question. So it depends on what race I have coming up. So when I'm like going into Leadville, for example, I'm almost a % on my mountain bike. The mountain bike position is different than the gravel position, and I think that like as a triathlete, you know this fast.
Hannah Shell:You need to train on the bike that you're gonna race on. I do still train on my road bike if there's a group ride. Like, when we're in Tucson over the winter, I love to do the shootout. I have a lot of fun with that. So I spend more time on my road bike kind of like through the winter months when really fast group rides are available.
Hannah Shell:And then right now, since I'm going into Unbound, I'm almost predominantly on the gravel bike. But I'll still do probably one mountain bike ride a week, just because I want to keep up those skills. They do go away very quickly because I know that I'll be doing more mountain bike racing later on in the year.
Justin Metzler:Sure. How is the mountain biking and gravel riding in Tucson and Boulder? Are Tucson and Boulder the main places that you find yourself throughout the year? Yes. And so that's myself as well.
Justin Metzler:I spent like the winter in Tucson and then, yeah, the the summer months more or less here in Boulder. Like, are those amazing places across the board for gravel, mountain, and road? Because I know from a road perspective, both of them are amazing. Gravel, I know Boulder's amazing for gravel. Like, how is Tucson for gravel?
Justin Metzler:And how are both of them for mountain bike?
Hannah Shell:Tucson is not it's not as great for gravel. There is gravel riding. There's really cool gravel riding. But it is a little bit harder to get that in from within the city. That being said, I actually think a gravel bike is a really nice thing to ride on the roads in Tucson.
Hannah Shell:Because as you know, the roads are
Justin Metzler:100%. And the paths, too. They're great for the paths, because it's a bit slower. And those are twisty and windy. There's like a million bike paths in Tucson.
Hannah Shell:Yes. But I actually find myself mountain biking a lot in Tucson. Because if you're familiar with Gates Pass area, there's a lot of cool routes you can build where you're up around Gates Pass doing your efforts on the road, and then you can like add in single track to connect over to another road to do another effort. So I have a lot of fun with that. And I think the mountain biking in Tucson is just like it's totally different than Boulder because it's a lot of more like sharp rock and sand.
Hannah Shell:But it's just it's really fun in a different way. Like, I almost enjoy mountain biking more in Tucson than I do in Boulder, which is probably weird.
Justin Metzler:How much of your training is focused on just, like, getting time and miles in versus, like, really specific intervals, sessions, that type of thing?
Hannah Shell:My coach has, like, some sort of efforts built into almost every workout. And that's not to say that, like, I'm doing, like, v o two intervals every day. But I think that for him, there's always a goal of the workout, even if it's like, Okay, you're doing a two hour zone two effort. For me, that's like, I'm going to find something where I can stay in that zone with minimal stops and minimal deviations for two hours. So I do think that the training is is very specific and does have, like, a very clear goal.
Hannah Shell:And I don't find myself being someone that's, like, just putting the miles in. For me, it's like, I'm doing the training. And then if I'm done with training, I don't wanna ride anymore because I'm trying to recover.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Do you have training partners and consistent training partners, or do you ride with your husband? Like, what what does that look like?
Hannah Shell:Yeah. So Starla Tettergreen, who's another off road athlete in Boulder, lives she lives like a mile away from me. We train together not every day, but, like, any day where our workouts align enough that we can, we train together. And then my husband and I don't ride together very often. Probably the only ride we do together is the shootout.
Hannah Shell:We'll, like, roll to the start and then usually not see each other again.
Justin Metzler:That's the key to a happy marriage. My wife, Jeannie, and I, we, like, almost we swim together every day because swimming is kind of like that. And, you know, we're kind of, like, similar ish paces. But, like cycling and and running, it's just like it's better for our marriage to be able to just go do our thing and then come back. You know?
Hannah Shell:Well, And like, I'm sure that as athletes, and this is your like primary job, if you don't have that time apart, you're just always together. %. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. I think it's really important to have that space. And we've both realized that, like, you need that just whether it's social time with your friends or whether it's just, like, you need to put your headphones in and be in your own space for a while, like, that's really important. And so anyways, we've learned that, I think, the hard way over many years of, like, trying to run together a lot and not going super well. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:That's that's very interesting. Yeah. I'm curious to hear a little bit more about the hot topic in gravel right now and in triathlon. It's just like this the fueling component. And I think that's something that you've spoken a little bit about on your social media, like, how much are you practicing race fueling and training?
Justin Metzler:How much are you experimenting with maybe pushing the limits of what, like, intra workout fueling can look like? And how much of that is, like, I guess, just on your on your mind?
Hannah Shell:Yeah. Well, I started working with The Feed in 2021, and I feel really lucky to have worked with them that early on because they've been pushing the high carb fueling for a really long time. So it's actually something that I started doing before I feel like it was becoming really, really popular. And in fact, at the time when I started doing it, I started getting a lot of hate on social media from people that were like, you don't need 100 carbs an hour for a five hour zone two ride. And I was like, I beg to differ.
Hannah Shell:Like, I think that the science says otherwise. And so it's been really cool to see that that's become more mainstream. And it's definitely something that I'm pushing the limits on, especially with, like, these longer events. I think that it and as a bigger rider, I think that it shows I think it's the science shows that there's really no limit. If our stomach can handle taking in more grams of carbohydrates per hour, there's going to be a benefit.
Hannah Shell:So the, like, 50 like, I love carbs fuel gels. They're, like, 50 grams of carbs per gel. And then the SAS beta fuel, like, just using those instead of a a, like, lower carbohydrate gel is really making it easy to start getting into, like, the 20, hundred and 50 grams of carbs per hour. So, yeah, especially going into Unbound, it's something that I'm experimenting a lot with.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Always explain that to athletes that because I'm really tall, you're tall as well. Like, I think if you're really tall, you might you probably have like a longer stomach lining. So therefore, you can absorb and pull through more carbohydrate. Precision has like a ninety gram gel that sometimes I'll have like a whole 90 all at once and they have these sixty gram bars.
Justin Metzler:Like, yeah, everyone I think is like subscribing to this higher carbohydrate. Yeah. I guess protocol now. And I think it's not only impacting our ability to go faster. I think we're seeing a lot of people being able to push higher power and go longer.
Justin Metzler:But I know at least for me, like in those instances where I'm similar to you, like, okay, I've come home from a ride, like I'm immediately jumping on a call or I gotta like, you know, jump on my bike and get here or whatever for for a podcast. Like if I'm doing, you know, a 50 grams an hour on a three hour ride, like, I'm not destroyed. I can kinda get through. It buffers me for an hour. Whereas before, three years ago, I'd be like doing 50 grams an hour and come home and just be like ghosted the rest of the day.
Justin Metzler:You know? Do you feel that way?
Hannah Shell:Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And in fact, that's like one of the things that because Jake does some nutrition coaching with motocross athletes, and that's like one of the things that we both will repeat so often is your training ride should not ruin your day. If you're fueling properly, you should be able to go do other things.
Hannah Shell:And it's so critical for people like you and I that have a busy life outside of training. You have to fuel because you're gonna have things going on as soon as you finish that ride.
Justin Metzler:Yeah, 100%. Here in Boulder, are there the cycling culture, at least from my perspective, and I'm not like really immersed in the cycling culture. With gravel cycling, you said your coach gives you very specific intention for the plan. Is there like a like a cafe culture, stop culture? I feel like looking at it from the outside, cyclists love to, like, you know, go have a stop at the cafe, get a cake and a coffee, off they go again.
Justin Metzler:Like, is it similar for you?
Hannah Shell:No. Like, no. I rarely stop on rides. And sometimes I will. Like, especially if I have an easy week where there isn't a lot of focus on the ride.
Hannah Shell:It's more like just go have fun for a couple of hours. Then I'll definitely be looking for people to ride with and trying to stop. Starla and I, like my training partner, we typically don't stop on rides unless one of us has an issue that they need to address. But that's fine. Like and I think that that's also a time factor for me.
Hannah Shell:Like, usually, I have three hours to do a three hour ride. One thing I do love about the shootout in Tucson and like that like, there's just such a cycling culture there in the winter. It does allow a little bit more for that, like, social riding. Yeah. And I think that I might be fairly unique in the gravel world.
Hannah Shell:Like, it seems just from what I see from my competitors on social media that they probably do spend more time, like, hanging out at coffee shops. Like, Is King, for example, is is a really good friend of mine. And she's riding. She's, like, super social. She's probably getting a coffee every time she rides.
Hannah Shell:And there's nothing wrong with that. Like, she's oftentimes stronger than I am in a race. So
Justin Metzler:Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, I feel like I'll split the difference. Like, half the time, I'll have a stop. You know, for triathletes, it's kind of different in the sense of, like, we're not riding nearly the same.
Justin Metzler:We're not hard, and there's days where they're not stopping at the cafe. But that does seem like a pretty cool life to be able to, like, sit sit there for half an hour or an hour, you know, on most rides and and get that done. I am curious to hear your take on just the overall improvements in speed. We 've touched on how difficult it is to really get up there in the lifetime Grand Prix now. Fueling is definitely a component of it.
Justin Metzler:Is there anything else that you're observing and you're working on, whether it's equipment or training, to maybe take a jump and maybe meet the demand of competition?
Hannah Shell:Yeah, absolutely. So I have been working with Mark Graveline, who is an aerodynamic tester. Sure. And we've been able to kind of work on my setup to optimize it in terms of aerodynamics and rolling resistance. So that's something where we're finding a lot of benefits that can be had.
Hannah Shell:There are definitely other gravel cyclists that are doing the same thing. In fact, we kind of joke that gravel is where triathlon was ten years ago. So I think that we're gonna see a lot more of this. But I think that's really where the the speed advantages are coming from. Like, Keegan doesn't talk about this a lot, but I know just, from being friends with his fiance that he does do a ton of testing.
Hannah Shell:And he's always done that. So that's like his approach to how he is the athlete that he is. It's not just like, oh, I go out and I train a lot, and then I show up on race day. Like, he's very scientific. And so I think that that's where we're seeing a lot of the gains.
Hannah Shell:And then this is it's such a new sport. Like, it's new in the sense that for a lot of us, we haven't been doing, like, twelve hour events for a long time. So we are finding out, like, more every year about how to train the best for these. Like, a few years ago when I was training for Unbound, it was pretty common for me to be doing, like, eight or nine hour rides leading into the event. And, like, now I've kind of figured out, I don't really need to add that level of fatigue.
Hannah Shell:I can do it with a six hour ride, and so I don't train more than six hours. And other people have different approaches, but like we're kind of figuring out what works for each of us.
Justin Metzler:Sure. If you have a six hour ride on your plan, what does that look like here in Boulder?
Hannah Shell:Well, for Unbound, I actually go east a lot, which is kind of weird because most people go into the mountains. But Unbound is is more hilly than mountainous. So it's it's like I think it's a better stimulus to go out into the more like rolling hills, the flat flatter areas, and just practice like pedaling constantly for six hours.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. There was a I had a Mark Allen on the podcast who he was a Ironman World champion many many years, and he would ride all the way out to Wiggins and back Wow. Which is Wiggins is, like, almost on the Kansas border. Yeah. And I did the ride once just for, like because you kinda have, you know like, it's a legendary ride that, like, a lot of the old school guys would do, and, like, riding out there is a lot different than, like, riding up left hand canyon to ward and back.
Justin Metzler:You know what I mean? Super different. Yeah. It's totally, totally different world out there. I I wanna touch a little bit here on mindset.
Justin Metzler:So, like, these gravel races and the mountain bike races, they're they're really long. Like, even an Ironman, you know, some people are doing 17 Ironmans. That's a really long time. But the professional athletes aren't racing much more than, like, eight or nine hours. And as you alluded to, like, these can be twelve hour events.
Justin Metzler:Like, they're super long. What are you doing to, like, stay present in these long training sessions or in those long races?
Hannah Shell:Yeah. That's a that's a good question. So I, like, oftentimes with training and with racing, will use my fueling strategy to help break it into digestible pieces. So if I'm eating a gel every thirty minutes, I don't think about, Okay, I have a six hour ride. I'm like, Okay, I just need to do this for the next thirty minutes, and then I'll have another gel, and then I kind of reset.
Hannah Shell:And that has worked really well for me. And it's the same thing with racing. I'll you know, I'm definitely not doing that when the group is together. When the group is together, it's it's like you have to be so mentally engaged because you're trying to stay in a good position, and you're also trying to keep yourself safe with whatever dynamics are happening. But, yeah, once the race kind of breaks up and you're into a smaller group, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna eat another gel at this time.
Hannah Shell:Or you're, like, thinking about the features that are coming up on the course because while it seems silly that you start to know what is coming up on the Unbound course, I've raced it enough times now that I know, Okay, this section is going to be around 100 miles. And then from there, it's pretty easy until this section. So for me, it's like it's breaking it up into small pieces.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. I kind of did that on the shootout a little bit. You're like, okay, gotta get to this, and then I gotta get to Madera, and then I gotta get down the descent, this and that. So that's like my only exposure to cycling. But in the long distance triathlons, it's for the pros at least, like, it's finding this balance between, like, your limit and also, like, meeting the demand of the competition.
Justin Metzler:When you're approaching something like an Unbound, how much of it are you just saying, look, I know my parameters, and I'm gonna stick within those, or, like, I'm putting myself mentally in there no matter what, and whatever happens happens?
Hannah Shell:Yeah. So this is where cycling is so different in that I don't even look at my power when I'm in the group. I have the map pulled up, and that's all I'm really focused on because I want to make sure I'm not taken like, caught off guard by any turns that come up. But your, like, entire goal is to stay in that group as long as you can. And when the group breaks up, because it will, you want to be obviously, you wanna be with the front of the group.
Hannah Shell:But if that's not possible, each group on the road is gonna be faster than the one behind them, usually. So it's just trying to stay as far forward as you can. And, like, in like, we will, of course, look at the power data from races so that I know what I'm training to be able to do. And, of course, figuring out, like like, for me, for the last two years, I was really lacking in, like, my top end power, which sounds crazy because you're doing these really long events. But when you're in the group, it's not that you're holding tempo for five hours.
Hannah Shell:You're, like, pushing really hard to get up a steep climb, and then if you're in the group, you're recovering until the next one. Sure. So that's kind of been a big focus for me. And so I think that as I'm going into Unbound, like my entire goal is just to stay with the front of the group.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. That's interesting. How catastrophic are problems? Because in these gravel races, it seems like the issues are maybe getting less so with the tire technology and whatever, like you're seeing less flats and whatever. But let's say, for example, you drop a bottle, you drop a gel, you're cramping.
Justin Metzler:Like, how how costly are those things in that long of an event, or is there opportunity to recover and still succeed?
Hannah Shell:Yeah. I think there's opportunity to recover. Like, Rosa, who won Unbound last year, flatted and caught back up to the group. So there's definitely opportunity. I think that I think Rebecca Rush said that there will be good times and there will be bad times.
Hannah Shell:Both are temporary, kind of relating to her experience with Unbound and Leadville. And it's really about problem solving. Like, you're starting to have stomach issues, it's kind of like asking yourself the critical questions of like, did I, like, take in one too many gels in the last hour? Or, like, maybe maybe I need to switch from drinking, a high carb mix to just water, you know, like, out what you can do to address the problem. Then there are things that are unrecoverable.
Hannah Shell:Like, if your equipment breaks or something like that, you're done. But like you said, there's been so many advances recently that we're not seeing, like, race ending mechanicals on dry days Sure. As much.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Interesting. I'm curious to hear your perspective on these races and maybe some of your training sessions and finding like a flow state. Do you find that often in training? And do you find it ever in races?
Justin Metzler:Like, I think about that all the time because I'll have some training sessions where I'm just like so immersed in the activity and like those are the days that I live for. And I feel like races sometimes they happen, sometimes they don't. Like, do you experience that?
Hannah Shell:Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that it's not every day, but it's like most days, that is where I find my flow state is like when I'm training.
Justin Metzler:Yeah.
Hannah Shell:And, like, sometimes I'll even, like like, I'll bring headphones, like, listen to a podcast or something, but I don't even end up listening to it. You know? It's just kind of, like, background noise, and I'm just, like, really in the moment focused on what I'm doing. And I find that that's, like, even if I'm not racing competitively in the future, that's something that I will always keep doing because I think it's so healthy for, like, our mental health and happiness as humans.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. I like that's probably the most important thing for me, honestly. Like, the races are just like kind of the icing on the cake, and if you get one or two of those special days where you can be just like completely immersed for eight hours, those are like the special ones, and so you always seek that in your training. And it's it's a really cool place if you can experience that. So you just gotta keep working at it.
Justin Metzler:Well, I really appreciate, like,
Justin Metzler:all your transparency and all these questions here today. Before we wrap up, I've got some rapid fire questions.
Hannah Shell:Okay.
Justin Metzler:Alright. Number one. What's your go to I know you said you don't stop very often, but if you have to stop on a long ride at a gas station, what's the go to order? Gummy bears and Gatorade. Okay.
Justin Metzler:Nice. What's the best road to ride on in Tucson and the best road to ride in Boulder?
Hannah Shell:Probably Mount Lemmon in Tucson. And I would have to say left hand in Boulder. Also, with where I live, left hand is the most accessible.
Justin Metzler:Yep. Left hand's hard to beat. Grams of carbohydrate target per hour when racing?
Hannah Shell:A 20.
Justin Metzler:Solid. Camelback on the back for hydration or round bottles or both? Bottles. Favorite professional cycling race to watch as a spectator, like on TV or if you go to a race?
Hannah Shell:I still love watching Criteriums. That's like like any crit. I especially with the women's racing, that's that's where I get the
Justin Metzler:most fired up. Cool. And last one, what is a destination where there isn't a gravel or mountain bike race right now, but there should be one? Man,
Hannah Shell:I would love to see a gravel race, like, in Tucson. I don't know that there is one there, but I think that there, like, could definitely be one in the off season that would be really popular. You know, there there used to be the Mount Levin Mount Lemon gravel grinder that went up the backside of Lemon. Yeah. Doesn't exist anymore, but, like, they should bring that back.
Justin Metzler:Alright. I'm with you. Maybe you can promote it. Make it happen.
Hannah Shell:Not on my schedule right now.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Alright.
Justin Metzler:Well, I really appreciate
Justin Metzler:you coming on the podcast. Thank you so much.
Hannah Shell:Yeah. That's great. Thank you. So good to have this conversation.
Justin Metzler:Awesome. We'll see you another episode. Peace.
