Eli Hemming: Professional Ultra Trail Runner and Former Pro Triathlete
Okay. Welcome to another episode of the Endurance Matters podcast. I have Eli Hemming, professional trail runner in the studio today. Eli, welcome to the show.
Eli Hemming:Thank you for having me on the show. Super excited. It's good to see you after the all this time.
Justin Metzler:It's been quite some time. I mean, we never really were, like, super close or anything, but, you know, you bump into people in the triathlon space. So for those that are coming to this podcast, maybe from triathlon or don't know Eli. Eli Eli is a professional former professional triathlete. Now he's a professional trail runner, killing it on the trail running scene.
Justin Metzler:And so we're gonna talk quite a lit a lot today about triathlon and trail running and sort of, like, where you're at now. But I start off the podcast with, like, a hard hitting icebreaker question. The question I have for you today is would it be easier to run a hundred miles or do 10 consecutive Olympic distance triathlons back to back?
Eli Hemming:Oh, I mean, right now with what I'm doing, I'd rather run a hundred miles. I have not swam since I quit triathlon. So I think that itself would kill me. Yeah. And, yeah, I think right now the easiest thing for me would be a hundred miles.
Eli Hemming:I'm not I think the easiest thing on my body might be 10 Olympic distance, but, I think I'd, I think I'd go for the hundred miles.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. It's still a hundred k of running if you did 10 consecutive Olympic distance runs, which is sounds like a lot regardless. I think getting back in the water would def like, each time after doing the 10 k would be a challenge. So, anyways, yeah, very interesting answer. I definitely I alluded to it before, but you got your start in triathlon.
Justin Metzler:Why don't we rewind a little bit? And why don't you tell me about how you got into triathlon in the first place?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. So my mom was actually a triathlete in college. She's been a swim coach longer than I've been alive. So, I popped out, started swimming right away. And then by the time I was five, six, me and my siblings were like, hey.
Eli Hemming:Like, we'd like to do triathlons too. Like, that's a pretty sick sport. And she's like, okay. Well, each of you go find one friend, and I will start a triathlon team that's associated with the swim team. So, at seven years old, my mom started a triathlon team.
Eli Hemming:So I was doing triathlon from the age of seven, which the only place in the world that you can do that is probably Colorado. Yeah. For sure. So, like, it it was a it was a a very, privileged thing for me to start doing triathlon at the age of seven. But then I kinda continued doing that all the way up until, when I turned professional at, like, the age of, like, 19, 20.
Justin Metzler:Okay. And did you always have the plan of going pro? Was that sort of your North Star to go pro and get to the Olympics and all that?
Eli Hemming:You know, it's kinda funny. So I never really had that, like, Olympic dream moment of, like, yes. That is my overwhelming goal. It's this is what I wanna do. Honestly, I was more of it I was more in it for the, like, the lifestyle of it.
Eli Hemming:I love training. I love all that goes along with that. And I love the lifestyle. Racing is what you do to get the lifestyle. Sure.
Justin Metzler:Yeah.
Eli Hemming:And that's, like it was something that I just enjoyed so much and it was kind of just like the next logical step to start doing, more and more important races, trying to go for the Olympics. Like that was kind of the next logical step, but it was never like a, yes, that's exactly what I want to do with my life. It was like, I I went to, college in Denver and started running there instead of because after, after the 16 19 age group, the junior age group, there's kind of this, like, there was there's a little bit more now, but there was this break of, I'm not really sure what to do with my time. Like, do I go to college for swimming, for running? Do I try to keep doing triathlon?
Eli Hemming:I don't know. So I was like, okay, well, I can get college paid for by running, so I'm gonna go run. And I made it a year and a half. I'm like, screw this. I'm going back to triathlon.
Eli Hemming:I can figure something else out. I started doing school online. And so that's kind of how I got back back into triathlon. And that's when I started like taking it really, really seriously.
Justin Metzler:Sure. If your motivation was really coming from an intrinsic place and you shift yourself back into triathlon and now there's all this pressure to perform and now the Olympic dream becomes a little bit more of a thing, is that a detraction from what, like, you wanted it to be? Did it turn into something else and evolve, or were you able to maintain that kind of love for the sport?
Eli Hemming:I I I went in ebb and flow with that. So I would get, like, really into training for a little bit. Like, all of a sudden, like, I'm, I'm doing every single workout. You can talk to my former coach. It was like, I'd have these like little stints that I was like the perfect athlete.
Eli Hemming:And then I would go absolutely rogue.
Justin Metzler:And
Eli Hemming:it'd be like, okay, I need some time to myself and I'm going to go ride for however many hours in the mountains. Like it was still, it was still fitness related and it was still like doing well for triathlon. Like I was still racing well and, but sometimes I just needed to like get away and be like, okay, I need to go ride my bike for, like, eight hours.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Do you think that was maybe some foreshadowing to what you ultimately, got into with the trail running? Just kind of being out there for quite a long time?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. I do. I I think it was, a lot of that was how I got my adventure fix.
Justin Metzler:Sure.
Eli Hemming:And so this is my new adventure fixed that I found.
Justin Metzler:Yep. Reflecting on your time in triathlon, because it probably had to be, you know, over ten years, ten, fifteen years when you look back on it. What were the high moments? If you can pick maybe one or two, and what were the low moments?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of the high moments were obviously just, kind of the grind in training. Like, I I I did love that so much. Low moments, obviously, my, one of my biggest goals was getting to the Tokyo Olympics and I was kind of one of those next guys out is me and Matt McElroy were right on the edge there. And I was in line.
Eli Hemming:So the way of qualifying spots for the Olympics is pretty convoluted, but it was basically you have to have three guys ranked in a certain bit. And so I was that third ranked guy, and I got a stress fracture in my foot, like, at the perfectly worst time. And so it was like, okay, well, if I go race, my foot's gonna be, like, absolutely messed up, but, The US will have a third spot, or I cannot race and then I can continue my life in sport. Sure.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. It's a there's no right answer there.
Eli Hemming:Right. Yeah. No. It So
Justin Metzler:what did you end up doing?
Eli Hemming:I did not end up racing. I kinda chose a little bit of selfishness there of like, I want to continue doing sport, whatever that is for a certain amount of time, or as long as I can really. Like until my body gives out on me, I'm gonna be going. Yeah. So it was kind of one of those, those I'm, I know if I get that spot, if I get that extra spot for The US, they're not gonna give it to me because I'm gonna be broken.
Eli Hemming:Yeah. So it would be different if it was like, okay, if you can guarantee that I have that spot, I'll I'll do it. Maybe. Sure. But, at that, I think there's some times that you have to take care of, take care of the body.
Eli Hemming:Yeah. And instead of actually, like, just keep pushing, pushing, pushing.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. And I think, look, it's I wouldn't perceive that as a selfish thing at all. You know? Like, your health comes first. And if you're gonna go there and break your foot in half and not be able to run, you know, for a year or two years, that's something that you really love and enjoy.
Justin Metzler:So especially if it's not something where you can sign a contract and say, hey, I'll go break my foot, but I wanna ensure I get that Olympic start spot. I don't think they were doing something like that at the time. Yeah.
Eli Hemming:They weren't.
Justin Metzler:So definitely very interesting. I know that you trained with Ian. Was that your main coach during your triathlon career?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. So, my mom was my triathlon coach, all the way from seven, all the way up until when I was 19 years old. And then, pretty much I told her like, yeah, I want to try to go like professional. I want to do this. I want to do that.
Eli Hemming:And she's like, okay, well, I'm not your boss here anymore. I, you need to go find somebody with a little bit more expertise. Like I'm done with you. Go find somebody that you can train with, go find a group. And so there was a program that was starting that USA G T was trying to start that was down in Tucson, that they kind of gathered up all these, young professional at, like ITU athletes.
Eli Hemming:And then they found Ian and they brought us all in the program itself kind of imploded within like three months. Like it, it just didn't quite work. There was something a little bit wrong, but I did really enjoy Ian as a coach. So when that finished, I walked up to him. I was like, okay, well this program is not continuing, but I would like to continue with you.
Justin Metzler:Sure.
Eli Hemming:So yeah, then all through that next five years I was with him.
Justin Metzler:Yep. So for those that don't know, this is we're talking about Ian O'Brien. He coached Taylor Knibb to world championships. He actually coached my wife to her second at, Ironman seventy point three world championship in 2021. So very experienced coach.
Justin Metzler:Do you feel like during that time, you had Ian and yourself together had extracted, like, as much as you had in triathlon, or do you feel like there was maybe more left?
Eli Hemming:I definitely think there was a lot more left. I think, like, it's easy to say this because, like, it never actually came to fruition, but, like, I do think the best I ever was at triathlon was right before COVID. Like it's easy to say that, right? Like so many people are like, oh yeah, like right before COVID was, that was the kind of the fittest I've ever been was we had this, training camp in South Africa and I don't, I don't regret like not being able to race Abu Dhabi because I find myself where I am now and I'm super happy with where I am now. And I think if I would have gone to Abu Dhabi and raced, it was like two weeks before we were like, that's when they shut it down.
Eli Hemming:They're like, okay, COVID's happening. You better get back to The US. You might be stuck in South Africa forever. Yeah. Sure.
Eli Hemming:I think if that race would have happened, it might have prolonged everything. So, pretty happy that it didn't go that way, but at the same time, it was, that was definitely the best I was in triathlon.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Yeah. Interesting timing there for sure. And then when does the idea of retirement come into your head? I mean, you're such a young guy.
Justin Metzler:At that point, you're, you know, mid twenties. When do you think to yourself I'm done with triathlon?
Eli Hemming:You know, it was kind of, like I said before, the racing is kind of not really my, my number one goal, my number one thing. And I've never I kinda felt like the last year that I was racing, like, I had some super high highs. Like, I won I won a World Cup. Like, that was the first time I ever did that. But then I also had, like, the worst races of my life, and everything seemed to be going wrong that year.
Eli Hemming:And it was just, like, beat my head against a wall. And so it was kind of I got to the point where I was like, okay, well, I'm kind of done traveling the world every single year of, like, I I wanna, like I think the first year that I raced triathlon, I was home for, like, two weeks. And I'm definitely more of a homebody than that. Like, I like having a home base. I like being near my family.
Eli Hemming:And so being like actually away was pretty tough thing for me. So kind of what I thought was, well, I kind of have a couple options here. Like if I kind of go to long course, go 7.3 Ironman stuff, I can live in Boulder. I can be, near my family. And then randomly it was just kind of, my wife now, was at, she was, gonna just hop in a random trail race and she's like, just hop in with me.
Eli Hemming:Like, it'll be fun. Like, do whatever. And we kind of had the question there, like, this is like so much fun. Everybody's so nice. Like, it's such a good time.
Eli Hemming:Could we just be, like, trail running vagabonds? And, like, fully joking at the time. And then kind of the the year of COVID continuing. I didn't race at all. I'm like, okay, well, now what do we do?
Eli Hemming:And that that's kinda just where that that little spark happened. And so I did another race and I was like, okay, this is actually so much fun. And so I figured, I didn't know at the time that I was going to get paid for it at all. It was just kind of one of those things, like maybe take racing a little bit less seriously and go have fun. And now I'm having fun racing, but, I'm actually getting paid well for it.
Justin Metzler:So Yeah. That's awesome. And I think at that point, what are you thinking career wise? Because you have this chapter, and are you thinking, okay. I'm gonna go back to school.
Justin Metzler:I'm gonna find a job, or were you just kinda head first into the trail running?
Eli Hemming:It was, I had for so for quite a long time, I've had a little bit of a a coaching side business, and I kinda thought, okay, well, if I want to go into another sport, I want to go kind of full in. So doing a job that I can make enough money, like I definitely not making very much money because coaching is not a great way to make money. But it was something that I could do anywhere. And I can sit on my butt and then the rest of the time is dedicated to running. So I was, it was kind of follow coaching and then, see what I can do in running.
Eli Hemming:And then now it's kind of devolved into what it is now.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Are you still keeping up with the coaching business?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. Yeah. We got, we got quite a few athletes.
Justin Metzler:That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of an interesting thing because I have a very similar story, I guess, where I feel like the coaching is always something that sort of supplements everything that you're doing. Right?
Justin Metzler:Like it's fun, it's rewarding. You can pass along the knowledge that you've, you know, gathered along your entire career, but also it has that steady income component with, you know, professional professional sports that is not as It's not as steady. It's not as steady as maybe you
Eli Hemming:need it to be steady.
Justin Metzler:To pay for a mortgage or a, car payment or whatever. So, yeah, it's it's cool to hear that. Sponsor of today's episode, Precision Fuel and Hydration. These guys have been an amazing partner for the show, and it's really a product that I use every single day in my training to help me go faster, feel better. So in today's day and age, we all know high carb is sort of the thing.
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Eli Hemming:Okay.
Justin Metzler:So was that 2020 or 2021?
Eli Hemming:That would be 2021.
Justin Metzler:Okay. So what was that and how did it go?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. Okay. So it was, it was a little race in Buena Vista named the spirit challenge. I think it was. And it was just a rink dink.
Eli Hemming:No one's there. It was just me and Tabor at the front. I think I got first, Tabor's brother got second and, I think Tabor might have gotten third or fourth. Like it was, no one was there, but like the environment was so amazing. Actually, there was some the people that were putting it on were professional trail runners.
Eli Hemming:Cool. And so I got to talk to them a little bit. And so that was a little bit of the excitement there.
Justin Metzler:Yep. And was there I guess shifting from triathlon, you know, at that point you had been doing it since you were a kid. You're probably pretty experienced and seen most of what you can see in triathlon. Going back to trail running, did it make you feel like a rookie again or did you feel like you picked it up?
Eli Hemming:Oh, no. I was such a rookie. There is a completely different skill set. Like, I think I was coming at it from a very good place aerobically. Like, I think triathletes are some of the fittest people in the world.
Eli Hemming:But when it comes to like downhill running and skills that come along with trail running, it's a completely different thing. So, I threw myself in kind of head over heels and was like, all right, let's see what it goes. See how it happens. And I was making do with a lot of fitness and a lot and very little skill.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Absolutely. Well, I definitely wanna that's a good pivot point here to talk about the training for trail running because, yeah, those that listen to the podcast, you know, I ask a lot of my guests detailed questions about their training. So I'm excited to dive into what your training looks like now and maybe what it looked like when you first started trail running. So can you walk me through, like, what a typical week of training would look like for you now?
Eli Hemming:For me right now? Yeah. Okay. So little context, I'm getting ready for, a hundred ks in, early February. So, right now living down in Boulder, trying to kind of harden the legs, it's a net downhill hundred ks.
Eli Hemming:So it's kind of one of those races that just absolutely beats the living heck out of your legs. So, and it's decently quick. I think the average pace, for like the course record is about like seven twenty, seven 30. So it's still like fast running. Yeah, for sure.
Eli Hemming:But it's like seven and a half hours of running.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Crazy.
Eli Hemming:Right. So, right now, pretty much I'm running about 120 to 130 miles a week. With that I do about one to two track workouts a week. I think it's super important to keep quick, keep fast, make sure that seven thirty pace feels easy. And then, kind of on the weekends, I've been throwing my legs down some, some big hills in Boulder, cause definitely up in the mountains where, Tayron and I live is not conducive to that right now.
Eli Hemming:So, I've been working up, bigger, longer, long runs, kind of back to back days, on the weekends and then just a couple of track workouts during the week, but mostly just accumulating time spent running.
Justin Metzler:Sure. And how much of that running is done on the road versus on the trail or the dirt roads even here in Boulder?
Eli Hemming:Most of it's done on trail ideally. We just got that snowstorm, so, a little bit less trail this week. But, I'd say at least 70% trail. And how long
Justin Metzler:are you going? Maybe mileage isn't a good question. Maybe time in terms of your longest run of the week or maybe the longest run that you'll do in preparation for this hundred ks. What would that look like?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. So my longest run, was four hours, and I got in 30 miles of that. So but I did two of those back to back days. So I did 30 miles and 30 miles. So I did four hours and four hours.
Eli Hemming:But really I think getting much over a 30 mile run is pretty hard on the system that it's hard to recover afterwards. So what I'm going for is something that's long enough to create that stress, but short enough that I'm not wrecked for a week.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. Do you have a coach right now?
Eli Hemming:No. It's, personal coaching. Well, but Taber is my coach. My wife Yeah. Is definitely my, my sounding board of, okay, am I about to do something stupid?
Eli Hemming:She's like, yes. You are. Here. Let's do this instead. Sure.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. That sounding board is incredibly important. And, again, we've spoken about it on the podcast because I've explored self coaching quite a bit in triathlon the last couple years, and I failed pretty miserably at it. And I've had guests on who self coach and are incredibly successful. So what do you think are the important components of self coaching to make it work?
Eli Hemming:I think the biggest thing is being honest with yourself, is keeping track of what you're doing, keeping track of what you should be doing, because it's easy to go to, what do I like doing? Sure. It's, it's not about what you like doing. It's what you need to be doing. So my biggest thing is like, if I was just doing it by myself, I'd probably be running more volume, but less intensity.
Eli Hemming:So my wife is here like, Hey, no, we need to be doing a little bit intensity here. You have to stay fast. Sure. Like that was kind of what I came in with, to trail running is I was one of the faster runners. And so if I let that slip, I'm losing my advantage.
Eli Hemming:Yeah. So, if I stay fast and then I get the skills up to where everybody else's skills are, I should win the race.
Justin Metzler:Sure.
Eli Hemming:But really, I think the biggest thing about self coaching is just being honest with yourself and being honest with your training and what you need. And, honesty is hard though.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. It definitely is because I think you gravitate towards, like you said, what you like and maybe what you're good at. And maybe there's justification in terms of, oh, I wanna capitalize upon my strengths. So let me do a bunch of stuff I'm really good at. And you pad your ego in training and then you go to the race and you don't you're not meeting the demands of competition because you've left a blind spot there.
Justin Metzler:That's yeah. That's very, very interesting. One thing I'm curious to hear about is, are you training with other people or are you just doing mostly everything by yourself?
Eli Hemming:So usually I'm training, mostly by myself. Easy runs are all linked up with my wife Taber. But that's purely out of, we train up in a little rank thing town in Colorado. So we have, one other runner in the County that will come run with us every once in a while, but he lives forty minutes away. So, most of the time it's training just with Tabor, which obviously different speeds when, the going gets tough.
Eli Hemming:So, all in all intervals, all workouts will be done by myself. But then now that I'm down in Boulder, it's actually a trail running hot spot. So I've tried to been a tried to be a social butterfly and, getting out with as many people as I can.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. For sure. Why did you guys decide to settle in Kremling up in the mountains there versus maybe just, you know, having a full permanent, location here in Boulder?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. So Taber is a fifth generation rancher. So we, during the summer, it's actually like probably one of the best places in the world. Yeah, sure. But like it, during the winter, it's really rough.
Eli Hemming:But with her, we moved up, into her family's ranch. So technically cowboy over here. Nice.
Justin Metzler:You have the wrong head on, dude.
Eli Hemming:I do have on the wrong it wouldn't fit underneath the headphones. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. We need to get, like, an Adidas branded one with, like, a bunch of little Adidas logos. That should be that'd be sick.
Eli Hemming:That'd be sweet. No. So, like, with, her family being up there, it was always something that, like, she talked to me before. Like, we really got serious with, like, hey, like, I'm moving back up to the mountains. And if you wanna if you wanna be with me, you're gonna be moving up the mountains.
Eli Hemming:And, like, it just so happened to be, like, it's such an amazing place. And like, I love living there except for when it hits negative 30 degrees. But, yeah, it was just kind of one of those things. Like it was a move for family. The summer trainings act absolutely amazing.
Eli Hemming:And it's just kind of one of those things you deal with in the winter.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. And fifth generation, fifth generation, did you say? Yeah. Fifth generation rancher. Like, what does that mean?
Justin Metzler:And are you a fifth, Are you a a a rancher now?
Eli Hemming:Technically technically, I'm a I'm a rancher now.
Justin Metzler:Like, what are your responsibilities and her responsibilities as ranch ranchers now?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. So, I mean, obviously, right now we're doing nothing. Right? We live in in Boulder. This is kind of the, low end, the quiet season of, of the cows.
Eli Hemming:We have quite a few cows living on the ranch. And that's kinda, we're just beef cows. So we raise happy cows. They're super happy their whole life. And then we send them off and get a paycheck at the end of the year.
Eli Hemming:But it's, really, we're just doing kind of things to keep the ranch going. Tabor's dad is the ranch manager, but it is a lot of work. I wouldn't say we have necessarily like, this is absolutely your job. This is it's, we're always out there helping, doing whatever, moving the cows, to different pastures, moving, doing whatever, building barns, kind of, you know, it goes to all sorts of different things.
Justin Metzler:And how are you managing that in addition to running 120 miles a week? Because you would think, you know, that training would take out most of your energy and time.
Eli Hemming:Yeah. You know, there's nothing worse than trying to chase some cows through some Sagebrush. Cause we don't, we don't move cows on a horseback. Horses are very expensive and very time consuming. And if you don't ride them, they get mean it's, kind of just this whole thing.
Eli Hemming:So we do it on four wheelers. But we live in sagebrush land. So, sometimes a four wheeler can't do it. And, instead of having all these dogs, Taber's dad yells at me like, hey, get around them. So you got to run and go get So I have to run-in around and I have to go get the cows out of the sagebrush.
Justin Metzler:Do you throw the GPS on and make it a real session?
Eli Hemming:I should at
Justin Metzler:this point. Yeah. Why not? Mileage is mileage.
Eli Hemming:Yeah. No. But doing that after, a hard track workout or something is one of the most exhausting things I've ever done.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. I can only imagine. Alright. I wanna circle back here to some of the training specific things. I'm curious if you are still incorporating you mentioned you don't swim anymore.
Justin Metzler:Are you still incorporating riding as part of your training routine?
Eli Hemming:A little bit less so. I'm a I am officially a fair weather cyclist. If I can't go out in shorts, I don't wanna do it. Yeah. I am absolutely not swimming anymore, but that's also kind of where we live.
Eli Hemming:There's zero pools. There are some bodies of open water that I'll hop into, but I'm not going to be swimming loops around it. So I will, I spend a little bit of time cross training on the bike. But right now I've kind of been playing with more running, less riding. I've kind of found that my body does surprisingly well off of high volume running.
Eli Hemming:And right now that's I'm really putting that to the test and kind of playing with it. See see what happens. I'll tell you for February 9.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. What's the race February 9 so people can tune in?
Eli Hemming:Black Canyon hundred k. Okay. Cool.
Justin Metzler:And then what about strength training?
Eli Hemming:Yes. I am trying to get back into it, as every runner always says. I work with, Chris Lee, and he, he makes something that's manageable for me because he knows, like, I am so against any strength. Like, for the first little while in trail running, I'm like, okay. Well, strength is not my issue here.
Eli Hemming:Right? That's this isn't my limiting factor by any means. So I'm gonna put my cards elsewhere of, like, I'm going to put my energy over here. And now I finally started realizing like, wow. Yeah.
Eli Hemming:I've first off lost a lot of muscle mass on the body, upper body, or like, I've started getting a little weaker. So now it's finally time. I'm like, okay, I'm starting to get back into strength training, just like a couple of times a week, a couple of mobility sessions a week. But I try not to put too much time into that and I'd rather put more time into running.
Justin Metzler:Sure. And what are you doing to stay healthy and absorb all this running?
Eli Hemming:I am very fortunate being pretty durable, knock on wood. That's great. But, kind of, it's just those things of keeping track of mobility, trying not to chase too many cows in the sagebrush after a workout. Trying to organize that with Taber's dad of let's do it Wednesday instead of Tuesday. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Eli Hemming:For sure. A lot of it is just scheduling so that I can make sure, okay, after a big workout, I'm gonna sit on the couch and coach instead of go work out and do something, with, like, labor.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Yeah. So you've spoken a little bit about the actual content of the training. I'm curious to hear from your perspective how much of the training is, like, flow and spirit and connection to the trail versus maybe what you were doing in triathlon where it's very data driven power meter, heart rate. You said you're doing track workouts, so there has gotta be an element of specificity, but where do you sort of find yourself?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. You know, I I was always the guy to find myself on, the adventure side of that wave in triathlon. I was always the guy who was like, oh, I forgot my watch. Yeah. Yeah.
Eli Hemming:I ran for who knows how long it was a good run though. Had a great time. So no, I, I think, for pure performance, it's something that, a lot of trail runners have to get more into the middle of that. I don't know if there's a perfect, perfect spot for any or for everyone, but there is, I think you do need to be doing a lot of some data driven stuff. You can't just be, laissez faire out in the mountains, if you wanna be at peak performance on trails.
Eli Hemming:That sounds right.
Justin Metzler:Walk me through a little bit of your training nutrition. Maybe the let's start with the nutrition that supplements the training. So maybe your day to day diet and then a little also touch on maybe a little bit about how you're fueling. If you're gonna do two thirty mile runs back to back, what does that feeling look like?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. So, really day to day nutrition is kinda just I I call it the seafood diet. I see food and I eat it.
Justin Metzler:Sounds like a good diet. Right.
Eli Hemming:Yeah. It it's kinda one of those things like I'm usually in a deficit, and I need to get in as many calories as possible. I try not to eat too much processed stuff, try to eat semi close to the source. But really when it comes down to it, if I need the calories, I'll go to McDonald's. Like if, if I need it, I need it.
Eli Hemming:It's more important to have the calories on board than it is to have the right calories on board.
Justin Metzler:Yeah.
Eli Hemming:So I always go for more as opposed to less. Cause I think that's one of the ways of staying healthy as well. And that's kind of something that I've always done is eat a lot. And usually I eat past full, Tabor always, puts my plate on there and I'm like, okay, this is my mission tonight. I enjoy half of it.
Eli Hemming:And I'm like, all right, I'm full, but I'm finishing that plate. Dang it.
Justin Metzler:You gotta power through. You gotta power through
Eli Hemming:for the mission. Absolutely. Yeah. And then, kind of training nutrition. I've kind of followed along with the classic theme of high carb fueling, trying to figure that out.
Eli Hemming:It's kind of tough with running though. Cause there's so much jostling. There's, a lot of other stuff that comes into it. Like I fueling on the bike is pretty easy, right? Like you can just be tossing back gels after gels.
Eli Hemming:There's no shaking there. So like, as long as your body can take it, you can take it. But, so I've kind of been playing with it of just like, kind of inching up more and more and more calories. I kind of found my happy spot is right around like 90 grams of carbon hour. Pretty much I can always do that.
Eli Hemming:I've tried going more and I've had some awful experiences. I've had some, The problem is that some days it works and other days it doesn't. So it's kind of one of those like repeatable things of I know 90 is repeatable and that's still that's still a lot of carbs coming in.
Justin Metzler:Sure.
Eli Hemming:If you can absorb all that, you're golden for an ultra distance event. Like if you're, if you're going harder than that, you probably have other issues. Like, I think it's a little bit of how what the output is. You need to be knowing that and like how many carbs and stuff you're burning, but your body can only absorb so much. So like, I don't know.
Eli Hemming:I'm, I'm playing a lot with that. That's a, that's a big thing right now. And right now, happy spot, 90 grams of carbs an
Justin Metzler:hour. Yeah. Interesting. I know that, you know, you've been around a long time and if you're a coach, you're paying attention to the science. One thing that was pretty hot, probably, you know, three to five years ago was going low carb.
Justin Metzler:And it's interesting how these things, you know, they become cyclical, right? Like it's gonna be low carb. Now it's high carb. It's gonna be low carb again in three years time. And it's probably gonna cycle back to even higher carbs at some point.
Justin Metzler:Did you ever pay attention to that or experiment with trying to because trail running is interesting because you're out there for, you know, like you said, seven, eight hours. If you're doing a hundred miles, it's a lot more. Yeah. Double that. Depending on
Eli Hemming:the course, it can be very long.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. So, like, the intensity level, even for you running a seven thirty mile, like, you're it's a very low, intensity zone. So in theory, you should be burning the majority fat as a fuel source. Did you go down that rabbit hole at all?
Eli Hemming:I, you know, I tried, I'd so we tried the whole, kind of low carb dinner, into kind of just a little bit of protein in the morning before an easy run. And then after that I would just feel so awful. And so it was, it was a thing that was not repeatable for me. And so one of the biggest things with training in general, like not just with fueling is it has to be repeatable. Like you're never gonna do if you do one workout, you're not gonna be that great.
Eli Hemming:If you do, like, if you do one a plus workout, not gonna be that great. But if you do a buttload of c plus workouts, you can actually be really fit.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting. I guess, like, can you talk through a little bit of the actual content? So if you're hitting 90 grams an hour, like, what are you doing in terms of carrying that?
Justin Metzler:I guess, you know, if you're if you need that much, that's 12 gels over the course of a four hour run.
Eli Hemming:Right. Yeah. No. That's really tough. So kind of currently the best thing that I've found is, I use precision flow gel.
Eli Hemming:And so if I carry, a big, big flow gel, I'll down an entire Flow gel on a run. Nice. And that's 300 grams of carb right there. So We
Justin Metzler:carry it in the actual big, like, gel packet?
Eli Hemming:No. So, I'll put it in a soft flask. Okay.
Justin Metzler:Got it.
Eli Hemming:Yeah. So it's it's 500 mils worth of, this gel. Yeah. So it is, we use a lot of soft flasks in trail running. That's that's like all we use.
Eli Hemming:We love the soft flask. So, like I'll have a belt that I can put a few soft flasks in. Or yeah. Americans really love the belt, and the handheld bottles. And then Europeans love a vest.
Justin Metzler:Yes. Yes. What do you think the cultural difference is between the belt people and the vest people?
Eli Hemming:Americans like to run fast and, Europeans like mountains. Yes. So it's, it's a different culture of like, it's a pain in the butt to run fast with a vest on. Yeah. But running with a belt on, you could do it.
Eli Hemming:And so a lot of American races, like you have more aid stations, more, more access to stop and fill up. So you'll go really lightweight, really minimal, kind of like the hero of, American running was like Anton Kopechia for a long time. He's a boulder guy. Yeah. And he would just run with a handheld and that's it.
Eli Hemming:Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. But it was it's yeah.
Eli Hemming:It's really funny. Like, going over to Europe, it's such a different thing and you have to learn how to run with a pack. But so much of that, terrain is so steep that you end up hiking a lot of it anyway.
Justin Metzler:Bow
Eli Hemming:ragging Sure. Is what they say.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. I am really curious. I have a whole section here, you know, just discussing, and I wanted to hear your opinions on the racing and the training in Europe versus the racing and training here in The States. Like, a, how much of your schedule is European focused? And b, do you feel like the mountains of Colorado can prepare you for the demands of competition in Europe?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. So, kind of right now, the for somebody who's not racing a hundred miles, the biggest race in the world is in Europe. And that would be UTMB week. So like the 50, it's a 55 k, a hundred k, and a hundred mile are like the biggest races there. So kind of everyone combines, they go to those.
Eli Hemming:They're starting back up like, world championships every other year. So this year there's one of those, in, Spain, but that's like I don't know. It's I don't know if it's even bigger than UT UTMB week. Like, there there's such, like, this cult following of UTMB week. So it's, yeah, it's one of those things, like, I kind of have to go if I, unless I wanna race, Western states, which is like the American version of that.
Eli Hemming:And again, Fast and Furious, it's very different, completely different race. But it is like our, our UTMB week. It's our special race. And so unless you're doing that kind of, if you want to be racing the best people in the world, you got to go to either that or the world championships, which are both in Europe.
Justin Metzler:Okay.
Eli Hemming:Yeah. But with that being said, I absolutely think you can train in The U S for those. I think it was really helpful knowing what the terrain at each of those races are. But, like, I think a lot of people feel the need to go over there a certain amount of time. But I think it's it for me, it's easier being here, being at home, being close to my family again, home body.
Eli Hemming:So it's one of those things like I know, okay, if I'm going to race in Chamonix, it's runnable and steep. We have plenty of runnable and steep stuff here. Like if we, if, if you look, look out at the mountains, they're they're steep, they're big. The tough thing is, the altitude. If you want to do a 3,000 foot climb, you end up at eleven, twelve thousand feet pretty easily.
Eli Hemming:Which, so it there's a little bit of give and take there. But I do absolutely think you can train here.
Justin Metzler:Can you do runs in the Rocky Mountain National Park that will get you up to 10,000 easy feet plus?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. I mean, Rocky Mountain starts at what, like nine.
Justin Metzler:Yeah, totally. And you can get up to 12 or whatever.
Eli Hemming:Yeah. I think, you can get up to 13 in Rocky Mountain pretty easily.
Justin Metzler:Yeah.
Eli Hemming:And then if you want to go over to like Leadville, you get up to 14, super easy. Sure. And you should have to find the right places to do it. Even in Boulder, you have a couple thousand foot climbs. And I don't, I'm not convinced that a couple thousand foot climbs, not a mountain.
Eli Hemming:I was told by Jim Wamsley, which is like the best ultra runner that US has ever made. But the world, he's one of the best in the world. He told me that I don't have any mountains around me because they're not a 3,000 foot sustained climb. Wow.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. I guess like Jim sort of inspired some of the question line lines of questioning here. Right? Because he trained in The States for a long time, and he decided that he need to move to France in order to be European.
Eli Hemming:Yeah. No. I I honestly think that was more of a mental break mental thing for him. Like, I think he needed to be all in for that event. He kinda has that, it takes him a little while to get a race right, but once he gets the race right, he's unstoppable.
Eli Hemming:Sure. And I think he just needed to be there. I think he was too far away from understanding the intricacies of it, that he was just like, okay, like, I'm just going all in, like, doing this. And I think so that I think that was more of a mental thing than, an actual physical thing. I don't think the physical changed to that much for him.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Can we rewind a little bit? I I think some of the the listeners might be hearing you speak about some of these events and the different distances. And even myself, I'm curious to understand, like, can you just break us down sort of what the trail professional trail running scene is like in terms of distance? So you see stuff like Western States, you see UTMB.
Justin Metzler:Those are hundred mile events. Right? And then you've got yourself, which is, you know, you're winning 50 k events. So what are the options for a professional trail runner, and where are you at?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. So the options are endless. Trail running is such a a wide it's a very ambiguous term, trail running, because you do have, there's tons of races that are called the Sub Ultra, which is kind of a funny thing. It's just like a a shorter race, but you can go up until you're, up until that, like, marathon distance. And they're fast and furious, crazy, wild.
Eli Hemming:There's, like, the Golden Trail Series that, is kind of the the hubbub of that. In The US, we have Cirque Series races that are just kind of like at ski resorts and you run up a ski resort and you run right back down it. Which is super fun, crazy, but they're only like an hour to three hours long. Like that's, that's a sub ultra race. And then you get to like the 50 ks distance, which some people still consider sub ultra like that.
Eli Hemming:I don't know why, but it's like, there's like sub ultra media that are like, yeah, well, 50 ks is close enough to sub ultra. I don't know. I don't know where that comes from. Like 50 ks is a long ways. That's, that's a lot of running.
Eli Hemming:And then, you kind of have the, the hundred ks and a hundred mile distance, which currently right now, I'd say like most eyes are on like that hundred mile distance, being like UTMB and Western States. Like those are kind of like the biggest, biggest hoopla around everything is like everyone cares about those races. I don't know what exactly the reason reasoning for that is. Like I think everybody for some reason just thinking longer is better. Sure.
Eli Hemming:But, yeah, they're they're I think those are kind of like the the biggest races of, like, importance, quote unquote importance, for the trail running scene. But the I, currently, those, other races are actually getting much more popular and people are realizing, like, wow, it's crazy how fast those races are. Like the 55 k that I did at, in Chamonix, like we were running the whole time. Like it wasn't, UTMB. Like I like to talk trash a little bit.
Eli Hemming:It's like half walking, like power hiking. Yeah. No, it's it's spent there's a lot of time that's spent hiking. So, like, it's cool seeing these short races that are, like, fast and furious and crazy, like people exploding left and right. Like, sometimes me being that person.
Eli Hemming:But it is exciting. It's wild. So I think people are finally coming to grips with that. Each individual race has its own flavor. But past that, there's even there's 200 mile races now.
Eli Hemming:There's there's anything you can want in trail running.
Justin Metzler:And where do you fall? So, like, for those that don't know, Eli won a huge race. It's fifty k called OCC this August. Was was that, like, a breakthrough race for you? Absolutely.
Eli Hemming:Yeah. So that, that's part of that UTMB week.
Justin Metzler:Sure.
Eli Hemming:So that's the that was, like, the most competitive 55 k or 50 k, distance, in, the world that year, this last year. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:Yeah.
Eli Hemming:Sure. It's new year. It's kinda still that year.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Absolutely. We'll we'll we'll we'll just keep moving in 2024. So you're are you, you've mostly been focusing. You haven't gone beyond 50 ks.
Justin Metzler:Is that correct?
Eli Hemming:So, yeah, I've done, I did a 50 miler. But, this is kind of a weird thing, but I consider the 50 miler about the same as the 50 ks like that, it purely that 50 miler, because it's so fast that the time that I ran in that was about the same time as I ran in OCC, which is funny. Cause like, I, I kinda do things off of hours instead of miles. Like I'm going to get ready for a seven and a half hour race is way more manageable than, oh, yeah. I'm gonna go run 60 some miles.
Eli Hemming:Totally.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Yeah. %. That that makes complete sense. And I guess, like, is there a competition between the guys that are focusing mostly on the hundred mile and the 50 k?
Justin Metzler:Like, are those tow two totally different things? Like, is it short course versus long course in triathlon where there's a complete divide and, like, short courses when people step up, that's a big transition for them, or is it sort of like everyone dabbles in everything?
Eli Hemming:It's it was more divided. Like, it was kind of short course, long course triathlon type of thing, until recently. Well, I should say, all of the ultra distances are kind of interchangeable, like interchangeable. They're much different, but the, and then the sub ultra stuff has been very different until kind of this last couple of years where now those guys are kind of playing up and the longer stuff, a lot of the top guys in the big ultra scene are still throwing down unbelievable times in the sub ultra races. So it depends on the athlete, but it's a little bit more interchangeable now.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Do you foresee yourself focusing more in the future on the 50 k stuff? Do you wanna progress up? Do you wanna play around?
Eli Hemming:You know, kind of this whole trail scene, like the whole trail life that I've started is just kind of been exploration of trying to figure out what my favorite thing is. Currently it's been up to, like, I've been having more fun going longer, so I'm gonna try going longer and try racing longer and see what I think about it. I don't have any really idea going forward past, like, this next year. Like, yeah, I wanna do longer races and I wanna do some hundred milers, but, I think I always wanna do some shorter races. I love the 50 k distance.
Eli Hemming:Like, it's so much fun and it's amazing how fast you can run for three to four hours.
Justin Metzler:Yep. Very interesting. And I guess, like, one question that I have, off the heels of that is from a professional standpoint. Do the brands care as much about the 50 k and shorter as they do the hundred mile? I mean, our our athletes who are focusing like Jim Walmsley, obviously, he's successful at the hundred mile.
Justin Metzler:Do they value him more than someone doing a 50 k or below?
Eli Hemming:It really depends on the brand. There are some brands that really care about sub ultra racing. So, like, the that whole golden trail series, that subculture racing, that is sponsored by, Salomon. And so Salomon loves subculture racing. Like, that that is their jam.
Eli Hemming:They they love that. So they put money into that. They sponsor all these subculture athletes. And then other companies just don't really care about sub ultra stuff. They're like, all right, all we care about is the a hundred mile distance.
Eli Hemming:So like HOKA, they care about the a hundred mile distance. They are like, all right, we want, we want, Jim Walmsley. We want Rod Farber. Like, these same guys that race about the same race, like, are fighting with each other for that, like, top spot on the podium, but they want all of those guys.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. And I guess, one question I have here is how sustainable do you think it is for athletes like Jim or yourself as you step up to do multiple hundred k's and multiple hundred miles while maintaining the speed, while not getting hurt, while traveling the world? Like, is this a recipe for disaster, or is it more manageable than maybe I perceive?
Eli Hemming:You know, I think there's, people that play with that line a little bit too close. I think some people hop over that line aggressively. I think there is a surprising amount that your body can adapt to. Especially if you're fueling properly, you're recovering properly. If you're doing all of the things, doing all the extra things, I think you can get away with a lot.
Eli Hemming:I'm not sure if I have a great answer for if it's good for you. Cause I doubt it is, but you know, I do think it's, one of those things, like each individual person has to take care of themselves and like, if they can do another a hundred miler this year, great. Some people do like, one of, my friends, Ruth Craft was like, I'll do 100 miler a year. I think otherwise that's, I think it's bad for my body. And so like, okay.
Eli Hemming:Yeah. Like don't do more than one a year then.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. The uninformed observer might be looking at professional sport and be like, oh, that's that's really healthy. But professional Ironman triathlon and professional trail running is not good for your body. No. It's really not.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. It's really it's really unhealthy. So, yeah, I think that's just what we all sort of accept. From my perspective as a very outside viewer of trail running, like, I'm a big fan of running. I pay attention really closely to track and field and the Diamond League.
Justin Metzler:I'm a little bit further removed from trail running, although now I'm getting a little bit more into it because I find it super interesting. And, you know, seeing you do what you do what you've done has been really cool. I'm seeing it follow a trend, and please correct me if I'm wrong, similar to professional gravel racing, similar to what Triathlon has seen where it was maybe sort of niche. Now it's getting a lot more media exposure. Are you seeing that as well where it's sort of blowing up?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. So it I think it's following, like, I think it's following Triathlon in in a lot of senses. I mean, UTMB is owned by Ironman. Sure. So, like, but I do think it's kind of going through this, like, huge popularity thing right now where everybody's, like, kind of going I think there was that huge rush towards Ironman, like, for the average person, like, 15 ago of, like, I wanna do an Ironman.
Eli Hemming:That's the biggest thing that I could do. And, like, now it's, like, all these professionals are racing and that's cool, but, like, less people are, like, that's the cool thing they do. Right now it's, I wanna see if I can run 50 miles or I wanna see if I can run a hundred miles. So I think right now we're kinda going through that, like, popularity spike. So I'm not really sure where that's gonna lead us.
Eli Hemming:There is definitely more of a professionalism that's coming into trail running that, like, talking with people that have been in the sport for a long time, they're just shocked of like, wow, like this sport's evolved so much, but really I've only come in it three years ago. So it's like kind of not really changed that much from when I've been in here, but, talking to people that have been in longer, they are flabbergasted to what's going on.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. It might be their perspective that, you know, it's do they is there a perspective that it's good for the sport or is it do they miss it? So mixed.
Eli Hemming:It's so mixed. Yeah. There's some people that are so against it, like, stop, get, like, all professionalism out of trail running. Like, we just want to go run-in the mountains with our shirts off and do whatever, like, barefoot. And then there's other people that are like, oh, yeah.
Eli Hemming:We're bringing in super shoes. We want to see how fast we can run this course. Sure.
Justin Metzler:Do you feel like you're one of those people who's coming in and trying to change the game a little bit? A little bit. Yeah.
Eli Hemming:Like, I I see the the whole, I see the the point of it and I see like, oh, yeah. This is an amazing thing. The culture is amazing. And I think it's something that's, like, we're responsible for keeping that amazing culture that is trail running. But I do think striving for excellence is something that really drives me.
Eli Hemming:And so, like, I think there's a lot of people that should to continue with that and finding that balance of not not being a terrible person, but also, like, doing your best in sport.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Do you think there's, like, maybe this protective cloak around the hundred mile distance, for example, because it is so extreme? Like, it's so much more extreme and, like, out there than an Ironman. It's so much more extreme than a marathon. Do you think it will always have something special there?
Justin Metzler:Because only a select handful of people can even complete
Eli Hemming:it. Right. I don't I don't know. It's kind of one of those things, like, I think more people are figuring out they can do it. I think even just ten, fifteen years ago, it was kind of that, oh, that's just for those weird people that run-in the mountains all the time.
Eli Hemming:That's that's for those, those people. I think now people are like finding like that can be their next objective. That can be their big goal of, something like I I do kind of go by the, you should do really hard things in your life. And I think a lot of people are finding like, yeah, this is super hard for me just to finish. And like that, that is one of my life goals now.
Eli Hemming:Whether that stays that way, I don't know. But, I'm enjoying the
Justin Metzler:the spike while it happens. Yeah. And, you know, you're in this world now seemingly a %. Who from your perspective is kind of changing that game and pushing the needle in terms of performance? Like, who's out there really trying to go as fast as possible?
Eli Hemming:Oh, there I there there is an entire echelon of people up there that are saying, like, alright. Like, it's been really fun doing like the slow stuff, but let's like, let's push the barrier, let's train more, let's train better. I don't know if there's one person that I can put up there. But there is just so many people that are, really up there trying to try to perfect the training that comes with trail running. Cause we don't know, like, it's easy to say like, okay, how do you get fit on a bike?
Eli Hemming:Like a Watts a Watts, you know, you gotta push a certain amount to, if you're, drag is this, you gotta push a certain amount to get off the bike this at this point. Like, that's that's pretty easy to know, but who knows what you need to be able to run up a 20% incline on, after six hours of running.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. It's totally different. There's so many more elements that go into it. Yeah. It's crazy.
Justin Metzler:What is the sponsorship situation like in professional trail running now? Is it many contracts for many people, or do you feel like there's only a select handful of people out there who are making a living off of professional trail running?
Eli Hemming:There I think there's a lot more contracts than there are people making a living. There's a lot of contracts right now that are kind of that you get shoes and $5. And I think there's a lot of people that are like, just want to be labeled as a professional, which is tough. Like I think there's a lot of athletes that deserve a lot more, but there's, it's again, going back to like the coming into professionalism in the sport right now, I think brands are a little bit taking advantage of that and, not paying like athletes necessarily what they're worth. I think if, as long as this, trend keeps going and trail running become, keeps growing as much as it is, I think that'll change within the next few years.
Eli Hemming:And I think there's a lot of athletes that are finally starting to get what they're worth. Like there's athletes that are making six digits now just off of a single contracting, like, wow, that's, that's actually what they're like putting out there. And they're giving that, brand that return on investment that it's worth them doing that. So it's kind of that give and take, right? Like it's, finding, finding the right athletes, but at the same time, like companies can't take advantage of athletes.
Eli Hemming:Yeah.
Justin Metzler:I mean, is there any onus on the athletes and maybe you lump yourself into this category of, hey. We have to vouch for what our industry standard is here because I've had this conversation, with Alexi Vermulen, who's a professional gravel cyclist. And I was just you know, we were discussing the fact that if one athlete takes five k from a company and one athlete takes zero, and they both sort of do the same thing in terms of social media and and performance, everyone's value comes down. And those are just arbitrary numbers. But are you seeing that in your scene right now?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. There's definitely that right now. Because again, like, there's it's nice to call yourself a professional athlete and I think there's this, this level of, respect that comes with it. I don't know if respects the right word, but it's that where you can start to, you can take it really seriously and people aren't saying, Hey, when are you going to get a job? She's like, I'm a professional.
Justin Metzler:Yeah.
Eli Hemming:Oh, okay, good. Yeah, that's great. And like, I think that's, like the first step of getting it to there. I do wonder, like if it was more open, say like, you know, how much like basketball players are making, you know, how much football players are making. So I want, I, I don't know if this is the answer, but I wonder if there was like, kind of that open source of like, this is how much Jim's making.
Eli Hemming:This is how much Kaylee's making. Like, it would be super interesting to know just so that people had this. Okay. Well, I'm not giving a brand what it, what Jim wants or what Jim can give them. So I don't deserve nearly that much.
Eli Hemming:And, but I'm giving a lot more than this person. Sure. Yeah. There's like a ranking system. Yeah, no, but like, it's something that like, even just like you can figure out roughly what you're worth.
Eli Hemming:And I think with it being such a new sport, there's just big questions of, I don't know what I'm supposed to ask for. Right. Like, and I I've, I've been going through this. Like I changed sponsors to ideas this last year and it was like, I don't know, like I want some money. Like I want to be able to make a living so I can coach a little bit less and spend a little bit more time running.
Eli Hemming:But yeah, it's kind of one of those big questions. I'm not sure what the answer is. I don't think I'm the guy for that, but, I do love to throw ideas out there. Like, it'd be fun to to know how much everybody's making at least.
Justin Metzler:I feel like I've been, like, I'm poking at Adidas now now only because I had Drew Hunter on the show. And, like, I asked him a lot of, you know, industry brand questions because I'm really curious about this topic and, you know, you're sponsored by Adidas as well. One thing I'm curious to hear your opinion on is if Adidas values you as a trail runner the same way that they value some of their guys on the track track?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. I, I know that like, so I would say like they're, they value us. But it's not something that looking at it from a business side currently, we're not making nearly as much money for Adidas as track and road running is. So why would they give us as much money? Like, I do think there's more of a discrepancy than probably should be with that.
Eli Hemming:And that's not with it, just Adidas, like that's with most companies. You see these big contracts coming out and you're like, for like road athletes, you're like, wow, that that'd be nice. But like, it is one of those things like our, we are still a niche sport. So it is I I think it currently is, like, yeah. Like, we we make less money for Adidas than, like, a Drew Hunter would.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you just I think there's, like, a pure what's the income versus what's the spend type thing. And, yeah, I think running shoes are are really hard because it's difficult to draw, like, the direct correlation between, you know, influence and sales Exactly. Type of thing.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. What is the impact of the carbon shoe? You mentioned that now in trail running. Like, that's coming over. Are trail races getting exponentially faster?
Justin Metzler:Are world records getting broken or course records getting broken because of the shoes? Or, like, what's your opinion there?
Eli Hemming:So, super shoes and trail running is such a difficult thing. Like, for companies to get a shoe right is such a difficult thing. I don't think you can have like, if you just throw, on the bottom of some, like say Adidas pro three, just throw some lugs on there. You are going to break your ankle. They're too stiff.
Eli Hemming:They're not stable enough. So actually finding the right, combination of stiffness, where you're actually getting some return back using some of that, PEBA foam that is absolutely amazing. It's hard finding that combination right now. We're like, I'm I'm very lucky right now because Adidas absolutely has the best trailer next year. Really?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. Their their SuperShe is the best. Like, I I'm so I'm very happy with where I am right now. Cool.
Justin Metzler:Is that like does everyone else agree? Like, are people looking at Adidas and being like, oh, well, that's like way better than a HOKA or way better than a Nike or whatever?
Eli Hemming:I think there's very few people that are like saying Adidas is out of the question. Like for, there's obviously people like, okay. Yeah. Well, I like this feel better than I like this one. And it's hard to actually like, say, okay, if you're running on this trail, how can you prove that it's this much better until like, until you've actually run-in them.
Eli Hemming:Yeah. So, like, a lot of people are just like, I'm just not gonna run-in them because I don't wanna know. Yeah. That's true. Like, if you have a contract with HOKA or with Nike, you're like, I'm not gonna run-in them.
Eli Hemming:I I wanna know that I'm wearing the fastest shoe I can wear. Yeah. But it is one of those things like it's, it's very dependent on the terrain and going back to all the different styles and distances of trail running. You also have such different styles and, distances of terrain, like the things that change up, like say, like if you go to California and you're racing in California, there is many times that you will be sub six, like in a hundred miler, like it, there, those trails are smooth as butter and super easy. You go run up in the the Rockies.
Eli Hemming:Yeah. You're probably gonna be doing a lot of hiking and they're not gonna help you that much.
Justin Metzler:Sure.
Eli Hemming:So, if you're finding those, like, fast shoes, they definitely help you more in, say, like, a Western states than they would in, UTMB. I don't know necessarily. They, they help a lot with like foot fatigue and leg fatigue and stuff. So it might still like do a pretty big impact on those more, like, hiking that's hiking races, than, like, the fast, like, western style races. So I don't know exactly.
Eli Hemming:I think it we're too early to tell. But I think it is one of the big things that is changing.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Just tie it back to the business component. How much is a company like Adidas pushing that carbon trail shoot? It feels like a specific audience.
Eli Hemming:Yeah. So they, they did a really great thing. They, they pushed it during UTMB week, which like, they kind of caught everyone off guard. But in before, like, cause UTMB is sponsored by HOKA and like, they didn't have rules set before that. Nice.
Eli Hemming:And they like threw that out there and then, so they got super big with that. And they were like teasing it for years of like, we're trying to figure out this perfect shoe or we're figuring it out. Like we put a shoe on an athlete and they tell us this is wrong. So they would change that thing and give it back to them. So like it was something that was in development for such a long time.
Eli Hemming:And even like we found, carbon's not necessarily the way, one of the best things is kind of plastic. Like it's it's not it's stiffer and that it it has a stiffening element in it, but it's not carbon because carbon's, like, almost too stiff and you you'll break your ankle. Sure.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A %. What, let's see here.
Justin Metzler:You're still new to this. You said you've only been doing this three or four years. Like where do you see this season taking you? You mentioned the a hundred, k coming up in February. What's beyond
Eli Hemming:that. Yeah. So, beyond that, so I am signed up for, the a hundred k distance at, UTMB week. And then, kind of that my season's going to be built probably around, racing that the thing that throws a big wrench in it. This race that I'm going to is a golden ticket race, which means that if I'm in the top three, they're giving me an option to race Western states, which is a hundred miler, which is, I'm not sure if I'm ready for.
Eli Hemming:And like, honestly the, the whole Western thing doesn't really like, it doesn't really get me going. I like the only thing that does it for me there is the competition. And the competition looks like it's gonna be just absolutely next level this year. And, like, it's not my motivation to go to this hundred ks. Like I just wanted to get a hundred ks in before I go race that CCC, but if the options there, if like, I really like it, if I do well, obviously if I'm in that podium position.
Eli Hemming:Yeah. So like I have to do very well to be there, to even have that option, but that would be the only thing that would throw a wrench in it. And, yeah, I don't know, man. Like, we're we're kinda playing it by ear. Currently, the idea is focused on CCC.
Justin Metzler:Yep. Very interesting. And then is it do you think that it's gonna be an easy decision to take that Western States slot if you get that golden ticket?
Eli Hemming:No. I don't think it is.
Justin Metzler:Do you do you foresee a world in which you decline?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. Absolutely. There there's I'm absolutely fifty fifty right now. And I'm trying to kind of push that thought off, until after the race. Cause I think the race is gonna tell me quite a bit about what I like and what I don't like about the distance.
Eli Hemming:Obviously if I have a terrible race, like it's not even an option for me. Yeah. But if I have a great race and they're like, still, like, I don't really wanna run, like, another seven hours. It's like, okay. Easy decision.
Eli Hemming:I don't wanna do it.
Justin Metzler:I think in that moment, it's gonna be hard to say you wanna run another seven hours. I guess long term, maybe looking at the next three years, is focusing on the hundred mile maybe more more your goal or the thing, or are you gonna continue sort of down this path of just playing around?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. You know, I I'm still just following, what I'm enjoying. I'm not gonna go say like, okay, I need to go race Western States or UTMB. Cause I think they're some of the biggest races. It's what's kind of driving my heart at the time.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Cool. All right. Well, before we wrap the podcast here, this has all been super insightful. I finished the podcast here with a rapid fire.
Justin Metzler:I've got six questions for you today. You ready for it? K. Alright. Number one, who was your biggest inspiration or motivation while you were doing triathlon and who is it now that you've shifted to running?
Eli Hemming:Oh, I always thought Javier Gomez was sick. Like I thought that guy was a legend. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:Totally.
Eli Hemming:And then in trail running, like I, oh, I I have a man crash on this guy named Manuel Marias, like absolute man crash. He, I don't speak the same language. He speaks Spanish. I don't speak any Spanish. And like, we we've tried to converse, like with my limited Spanish doesn't happen at all, but this guy is an absolute monster running downhill.
Eli Hemming:He runs with these bamboo, poles all the time. He's like, absolute legend. I was like, I wanna be that man. Yeah. Totally.
Justin Metzler:How this isn't rapid fire now, but I have a follow-up question of all of that. Like, how inclusive is the professional scene? Is everyone, like, pretty chill and nice, or is it very combative and competitive?
Eli Hemming:99% of people are, like, some of the nicest people I've ever met.
Justin Metzler:Wow. That's really cool. That's cool to hear. What's your most epic I'm lost but don't want to admit it moment?
Eli Hemming:I would say more so, I've I've done that on training runs of just, like, I get out in the wilderness and, like, wow. This is not the trail I thought it was. And, like, you're, like, 10 miles out. You're, like, okay. Like, pull out the phone.
Eli Hemming:I'm like, nope. GPS does not work when you don't have any phone service. So So
Justin Metzler:you like download the route on your Garmin or something?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. You know, I've gotten better at that now. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:Okay. Yeah. After after
Eli Hemming:more than one of those experiences.
Justin Metzler:Yep. Yeah. What's the most challenging place to run-in the world?
Eli Hemming:I don't know. I think as long as you're prepared for it, it shouldn't be that challenging.
Justin Metzler:You sit down in the chair, walk me through the aid station routine, like in a race.
Eli Hemming:Oh, I I don't sit in chairs in aid stations. Really?
Justin Metzler:Oh, it's that it's like that. Okay. Hang on. Even for the hundred k, you wouldn't?
Eli Hemming:No. No. I'm definitely not.
Justin Metzler:What about a hundred mile?
Eli Hemming:Hundred mile? If I'm feeling bad, I might stop for a second. But, currently, I think, right now, the goal is to run through every aid station I get to. Okay. Just, like, pick up some new bottles, maybe toss some ice in a in a backpack or something.
Eli Hemming:I don't know.
Justin Metzler:Do you need to change shoes? I feel like I see people changing shoes at the aid station.
Eli Hemming:I don't have too many issues with my feet, with the the Adidas shoe. So, ideally, I don't. I think that's in case of emergency.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. For sure. How does one handle falling on the trail? Is it like a graceful way to do it?
Eli Hemming:Or are you just like running
Justin Metzler:one moment and down the next?
Eli Hemming:Yeah. Don't ask me. I am the I am the least great graceful faller there is. Yeah. And the way I came into this sport is I would I just started following all the fast people I knew, so I was in over my head, so I fell constantly.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. It's have you had any injuries, like, just, like, fall and break your wrist or something?
Eli Hemming:I haven't had any broken bones, knock on wood, but I have had a lot of bruises and scrapes. Yeah. Well, you know, touch wood. I've yeah. I I just sprained my wrist, like, last week.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. It's I feel like it's part of the territory with trail running. Like, yeah. I run trails, like, once every two years and always fall, like, on that one run. So alright.
Justin Metzler:If you had to pivot again and choose a career in another adjacent endurance sport, what would it be? Oh,
Eli Hemming:I don't know. I think I could I think I could do gravel cycling. I I kinda go back and forth on that because I love gravel riding, and I'm, I'm a good rider, but, like, I feel like that's meant for easy riding. Like, that's meant for fun riding. So I don't know if I don't wanna race it, but I think if I had to change, I'm probably gonna gravel riding.
Justin Metzler:Sounds like a good answer. Alright. Well, that's all I've got for you today. Appreciate you coming on the podcast.
Eli Hemming:Yeah. Thanks for having me, man.
Justin Metzler:See you in the next episode. Peace.
