Dean Karnazes: Legendary Endurance Athlete and Best Selling Author
Today's guest, Dean Karnazes, was an amazing chat. I thoroughly enjoyed getting to know this man more. He's really an icon and a legend when it comes to endurance sports as a whole, especially ultra marathon. And, one of the points that I really enjoyed throughout our conversation was just diving deeper into his mindset, how he pushes through when the endurance races are insanely long or insanely difficult. This guy's literally done it all.
Justin Metzler:So getting to know more about him, his personality, his mindset, his business, all of that was really interesting. So I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did and enjoy. Alright. Today's guest, another podcast. We've got Dean Karnazes, ultramarathon runner, New York Times best selling author, renowned public speaker, Badwater ultramarathon champion.
Justin Metzler:Dean, thanks for coming on the show.
Dean Karnazes:Thanks for having me run by.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Absolutely. So you came all the way from Greece for this.
Dean Karnazes:Yeah. It was so ironic. I'm living in Greece now, and I just happen to be in Colorado for, my partner's doing the Leadville Trail 100. And I get this email, like, hey. You wanna do an interview in Boulder?
Dean Karnazes:I'm like, I'm here. I can't believe it. Yeah. So it worked out. It's serendipitous.
Justin Metzler:Perfect. That's you know, when things just work out, they're meant to be. So, yeah, I really appreciate you carving out the time, you know, and the taper and the travel to to come down here to Boulder and for me to get a to learn a little bit more about you. You know, your name sort of precedes you and your reputation, which is, which is amazing, and I'm excited to, learn more about, yeah, your backstory and all that. But before we get into it, I'd like to start off the interviews with, like, a hard hitting icebreaker question.
Justin Metzler:So first one is, what is more difficult? Is it to write a book or run for 80 hours straight?
Dean Karnazes:It's a good question. They're both, 99%, perspiration, 1% inspiration. But I think writing a book is more difficult to me just because the finish line you know, running 350 miles, at least you knew where the finish line was. A book, the finish line is always shifting around. Like, you're never quite sure you got it right.
Dean Karnazes:And and to write a book well, it just takes a lot of in your own head. And I would say writing a book's more difficult. I have a lot of respect for anyone who's written a book.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. I I can totally understand that. As an endurance athlete, I have no problem riding my bike for 7 hours, but, like, sitting down and trying to even write show notes for this episode for 2 hours or an hour or whatever it was, like, oh, it takes a little bit more brainpower than, getting on the bike and riding over the mountain. So, yeah, I I'm not surprised by that, but it is good to good to hear.
Dean Karnazes:I actually do a lot of my writing when I'm running, and that's one thing when, you know, when you're cycling, things are moving a little bit quicker. You gotta kinda pay more attention. But I I'll go on 3 or 4 hour runs, and I'll dictate into my, now into my cell phone. I have you know, we have some of your clearest thoughts when you're running. And so it says kinda like multitasking, but, yeah, I go running and I, you know, word wordsmith the paragraph, wordsmith.
Dean Karnazes:And I can remember sometimes 3 or 4 paragraphs.
Justin Metzler:Wow. Yeah. Will those be, like, final draft edits right off the cuff? Like or do you kinda go back and that's a rough idea and then you kinda gotta carve it out or edit it?
Dean Karnazes:Some of the, like, the quotes are perfect. Yeah. Just like that is you know, you just think of these things and so profound, like, wow. That's great.
Justin Metzler:Yeah.
Dean Karnazes:Other you know, the longer stuff is needs to be trimmed a little bit Yeah. Nipped and tucked.
Justin Metzler:I feel like I'm mentally the most creative when I'm out on my bike or when I'm running, and I need to start doing that. Like, just not being so intense about the workout and just stopping and actually writing it down. Because even if I'm thinking about coaching, because I'm self coached and I coach my wife, Jeannie, and even whether it's preparing for this podcast, I'll come up with a great question, and then I'll come home 3 hours later and it's, like, gone. So I'm gonna take that from you. I'm gonna stop and I'm gonna dictate into my phone whatever my, and the time, I feel like an impressive thought is.
Dean Karnazes:Well, motion stirs emotion. So, I mean, starting with we talked about this a bit before the, the show. I'm in Greek. And, you know, Aristotle, his pupils, his students were called the peripatetics, the wanderers, because he taught while he was walking around Athens. He thought that you needed to move, to learn, to absorb, to have creativity in your thought.
Dean Karnazes:You couldn't just sit idle. So
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. Well, I wanna go back a little bit. You know, you've got such a impressive career both in running and in business.
Justin Metzler:I'm I'm curious to definitely learn more about it all. I wanna start off on the running side of things. How did you get into running, and why was it something that drew you in straight away, if it did?
Dean Karnazes:Yeah. No. I mean, my earliest childhood recollections are running home from kindergarten. So literally when I was 5 years old, I started running home from school. I I couldn't sit still.
Dean Karnazes:You know, we tell kids, young kids, sit still and pay attention. And what does every young boy wanna do? Run around and not pay attention. For sure. So I waited for the bell to go off, and I'd I'd run home.
Dean Karnazes:And I just loved running. It was something I related to the world through running. I ran competitively when I was in high school. We won the cross country state championships when I was a freshman. And at 15, I said, that's it.
Dean Karnazes:I'm done. That's as far as I'll ever take my running career. So, somehow graduated high school. I went to college, and then I thought I need a graduate degree. So I went to graduate school, and I thought I need a business degree.
Dean Karnazes:So I went and got an MBA and had a very comfortable corporate job in San Francisco. You know, all the perks, the 4 one k matching program, you know, health care, company car, stock options. And then the night of my 30th birthday, I was in a bar, with my buddies doing what a lot of people do on their 30th birthday. It was, you know, getting shit faced on tequila. And at midnight, I told these guys I'm leaving.
Dean Karnazes:They said, you know, where are you going? You're it's your 30th birthday. Let's have another round of tequila to celebrate. And I said, no. I'm gonna run 30 miles to celebrate instead.
Dean Karnazes:And they looked at me and they said, but you're not a runner. You're drunk. And I said, I am, but I'm still gonna do it. And I I walked out of this bar. I'll never forget.
Dean Karnazes:I didn't even own running gear, but I had on these, like, comfortable silk underwear, like, silk boxer shorts. And I took off my pants. I threw them down the alleyway. I'm like, Half Moon Bay is 30 miles south of here. Go.
Dean Karnazes:And I just ran drunkenly into the night, and somehow, I survived. I mean, it took I ran all night. And I I mean, I say I ran, but, I mean, I kind of walked and hobbled and crawled or whatever. But I made it to Half Moon Bay. And I said, you know what?
Dean Karnazes:I hate being a corporate guy. I hate the business world. I'm gonna be a runner. And I quit my job, and that was 30 years ago. Wow.
Justin Metzler:That is an awesome story. Did the buzz wear off, like, halfway through the run and you realized what you were doing?
Dean Karnazes:Yeah. Like, what the hell are you doing? It's a really bad idea. Yeah. And, like,
Justin Metzler:oh, it's gotta be a perfect storm of, like, the pain, the physical pain, and then the buzz is wearing off, and you probably didn't eat enough out.
Dean Karnazes:Oh, you're chafing and the blister. Oh, yeah.
Justin Metzler:Beer and tequila probably have enough carbs to get you through 30 miles.
Dean Karnazes:No. I remember, I remember looking down to my left was, the lights of San Francisco airport SFO. Like, seeing the jets coming in, and I looked up, and I saw the stars. And I don't know. Like, heaven spoke to me and said, you know, this is I've never felt this way before, but it's like, this is where you're meant to be at this moment in your life.
Dean Karnazes:Like, this is what you're meant to be doing. Yeah. And I'm like, from that point on, it was just kinda this numb gliding to Half Moon Bay. Yeah. That's very I I couldn't walk for a couple weeks afterward, but, yeah, different story.
Justin Metzler:That is a very interesting thing. I mean, yeah, I think about that all the time and that the world sometimes just has a way of kind of deciding for you. And the more you force it, the less happy you become and the less you achieve. And so to kind of have that realization, even if it is a drunken night, there probably had to be some thought process beforehand going into that, being like, oh, this isn't really for me, the corporate world, and I need to scratch an itch. So so that's cool.
Justin Metzler:I mean, talk to me a little bit about how you go from that, taking 15 years off running, getting back into it, deciding you're gonna be a runner, to getting into events, having it actually become your identity? Because it's one thing to say, oh, I'm a runner now. How do you go from that to now I'm gonna train and actually be a runner?
Dean Karnazes:Yeah. So, I mean, I I remember going to Fleet Feet, this running store in San Francisco after running, 30 miles, and I'm like, okay. I'm gonna be a runner now. So I bought some running shoes, and I was running, like, 4 or 5 miles every day out to the Golden Gate Bridge. And I was passing people.
Dean Karnazes:No one was ever passing me. It was, like, my pride. It was, like, you know, I'm passing everyone. No one's passing me. And one day, I was coming home.
Dean Karnazes:And if you live in San Francisco, you know, there there are hills everywhere, so you gotta inevitably run up a hill to get back to your house. And I was running up this hill, and these 2 guys just blew by me as I was standing still. Like, they were different species. Like, it was these were next level kinda athletes, and I thought my god. They're so fit.
Dean Karnazes:How are they doing this? And I gotta talk to them, and I couldn't catch up with them, and they disappeared over the the ridgeline. I thought, ah, I wonder, you know, like, how did they get so fit? I come up over the ridgeline, and they're doing push ups. And I'm like, oh, I gotta talk to these guys.
Dean Karnazes:So they weren't very talkative, but I said, you know, you guys training for something? They're like, yes. I said, is it a rate? Yes. I said, you know, the one guy, are there hills involved?
Dean Karnazes:And he said, no. There are mountains involved. And then they got it from the push ups. And I said, where is this race? What's it all about?
Dean Karnazes:And they're like, it's a slayer mountain 50. Like, where's it at? And they're like, it's near the Sierra Nevada. And I said, like, it's 50 continuous miles or, you know, how does it work? Like, where are the campgrounds along the way?
Dean Karnazes:He's like, buddy, the gun goes off. You start running. You stop when you cross the finish line. And his friend's like, if you cross the finish line. They looked at me like, this joker's in no way he's crossing the finish line.
Justin Metzler:Yeah.
Dean Karnazes:And and they blasted off. So I went to the library, did all this research, found out about this race. I went and signed up for this 50 mile race. I did this 50 mile race, and it was the most difficult thing I'd ever done in my whole life. I thought it was gonna die at points.
Dean Karnazes:It was so brutal. And I'll never forget, I finished, and I'm in the, like, the medical tent, you know, wrapped in this Mylar blanket. And I see these same 2 guys, and they're high fiving each other saying we qualified. We qualified. I'm thinking, what, for the insane sign?
Dean Karnazes:Like, what the hell do you call no. We qualified for the Western States 100 mile endurance run. I said, wait. Twice as far? A 100 miles?
Dean Karnazes:Like, that I couldn't wrap my head around. He's like, yeah. It starts at the base of a ski resort in Lake Tahoe. You run a 100 miles through the mountains. I said, well, that's like all night.
Dean Karnazes:He said, yeah. You run all night. You just put on a headlamp and you run. You cross a river. And the whole thought was so fantastic to me and so unbelievable.
Dean Karnazes:And the last thing he said to me as they were walking out is, hey, buddy. You qualified as well. And when he said that to me, I knew I would never, for my whole life, live down that moment unless I signed up for this race and tried it. I just knew at that point, you have to do this race or you're every day of your life, you'll say you qualified and you didn't have the balls to do it. Yeah.
Dean Karnazes:So I next year, I did the Western States 100 mile endurance run and finished and kept going.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. That's awesome. And you went on to win Badwater, win Vermont Trail 100. You ran in Western States 11 times, was it?
Dean Karnazes:13.
Justin Metzler:13. There you go. Yeah. 13 times in Western States. So, obviously, you got really hooked on continuing to show up to these events.
Justin Metzler:In addition to that, a 1,000,000 solo challenges or individual challenges, including running a 148 miles on the treadmill? In Times Square. In Times Square. Okay.
Dean Karnazes:Well, I wanna get in there. Platform. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. 50 marathons, 50 states, 50 days, running for 80 hours, like I alluded to in the in the beginning of the podcast. Like, these are all really, interesting challenges. I'm curious to know from your perspective what got you more pumped up. Was it these organized events like a Badwater, like a Western States where there's a competitive element, there's a start line, and there's there's a finish line?
Justin Metzler:Or was it these kind of different challenges that you created on your own, and what was the impetus to even start some of these challenges that you just sort of either came up with or or just did?
Dean Karnazes:Yeah. I mean, that's a good question. I think I love them both equally, and I think that's kind of the yin and the yang. You know, I like competing because it's quantifiable and to is a course and, you know, the thrill of competition, which spurs us to be better. But I also like conceiving these own endurance quests myself, and it it started when, I ran the Western States 100, and then I ran this Badwater Ultramarathon, which is a 135 miles.
Dean Karnazes:And I thought I can go further than this, but there wasn't a race that was further. But I've I learned about this, 200 mile 12 person relay race. And I asked the I asked the race director, like, hey. Can I just run it solo? Like, I'll be a team of 1.
Dean Karnazes:He's like, sure, buddy. You know, whatever. And so I ran this 200 mile relay race solo, and I finished. And then I thought, you know, there you you can come up with these events, and they're it's kind of exciting and thrilling in its own right. It's not it's a little bit different than a a western states or something like that, but, it has equal appeal.
Dean Karnazes:Yeah. And, you know, when I when I first like, when I ran 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days, that was 2,006. People weren't doing this kind of stuff. But now you hear about it all the time. I mean, you you get the Iron Cowboy, which you probably know.
Dean Karnazes:I mean, people are doing these kind of things. It's more commonplace. But when I was first doing it, I was kinda pioneering this this whole idea.
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Justin Metzler:That's endurance for 15% off all first time purchases. For anywhere else in the world, head to pillar performance dot shop and enter endurance for 15% off all first time purchases. I like the idea of doing something that you create yourself, and I got a little taste of that during the pandemic time when we were all sort of forced to create your own, internal competitions or whatever. And I I mean, mine was obviously on a very different scale. Like, I did a one on one half Ironman triathlon.
Justin Metzler:I did a solo 5 k just for time, and I feel like I'll I agree with you in the sense that competition definitely brings the most out of me as well, but those the motivation behind those was so pure. It was really just trying to extract the most out of my own self. And I feel like that has to be part of the reason why you continue to do those solo adventures was just trying to get the most out of yourself on the day. Is that true?
Dean Karnazes:Absolutely. I mean, I I remember going to the I was running Boston Marathon. I went to the prerace expo, and there's a guy giving a talk. And he said, I'm part of the 50 state club. And I'm like, what is this?
Dean Karnazes:He said, well, I've run a marathon in all 50 states. I didn't know there was a marathon in all 50 US states. And I said, how long did it take you? And he said, well, I did it pretty quickly. I did it in 18 years.
Justin Metzler:I thought I thought
Dean Karnazes:I'm gonna be alive in 18 days when I'm 18 years. So I thought, I wonder if you could do it in 50 straight days. And it just grew from there.
Justin Metzler:Have you always been sort of like, out of the box thinker or an extreme thinker? Because I don't know if the normal person hears about 50 marathons in 50 states and immediately says I'm gonna do that in 50 days' time. Like, how did how does something like that pop into your brain, or is that always just how your brain is operating?
Dean Karnazes:I'm a little fucked up. That's a good way to put it.
Justin Metzler:I like the honesty.
Dean Karnazes:Gonna run ultra marathon. It's got something a loose screw up there somewhere. Yeah. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:A lot of endurance I mean, I think a lot of us, you know, to the common Joe, an Ironman or multiple Ironmans a year is crazy enough. The training that we do is probably probably crazy. Ultra marathon, definitely. I'm not gonna beat around the bush. It's definitely a different type of, different type of wiring there, but, I mean, it's definitely inspiring and it's definitely definitely cool.
Justin Metzler:I wanna learn more about the training element because I am obsessed with training and physiology and those types of things. And so I'm curious, like, once you got into it, you started doing, obviously, the the competitions like a Badwater or, Western States. Those are competitions you definitely have to train a lot for and be super physically prepared. Not to mention the fact that if you're gonna run for 350 miles straight, like, there has you can't go into that unfit or unprepared. Like, what walk me through a little bit when you were in the heat of your, you know, expedition, to to tackling all these events.
Justin Metzler:What did the training look like?
Dean Karnazes:Yeah. I mean, in preparation for the 50 marathon to 50 states in 50 days, I was doing a lot of ultra marathon. So I probably ran you know, I've run over 300 just regular marathons now, but I was doing, regular marathons, like, on back to back weekends with, like, a a 100 miler. So I was kind of, like, really increasing the volume, this overall volume thinking, you know, if you've got the if you've got the stamina to do, like, a 150, 250 mile you know, 200 mile weeks back to back because because you think about running 26 miles a day, 7 days a week, that's like a 185 mile week, you know, for 6 weeks. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:Sure.
Dean Karnazes:Which is a lot of miles. Yeah. So I was working with, Jason Coop of Carmichael. You might know Jason Coop. He's from Colorado Carmichael Training Systems, and he kinda he introduced me to a training block.
Dean Karnazes:I mean, this is, again, back in, you know, 2005. I didn't know what a training block was. I mean, I was running in board shorts. Like, I I didn't I just would go out and run for 8 or 10 hours. So he really, gave me some regimen and some focus.
Dean Karnazes:You know, as I've matured, let's say, as I've aged, I've changed around my my training quite a bit. You know, I'm I can't I just can't handle the high mileage that I used to, so it's, more high intensity.
Justin Metzler:Sure.
Dean Karnazes:So, you know, doing a lot of, interval training, trying to keep up with, younger runners, doing some nose breathing, so kind of forced hypoxia, because I live, you know, at sea level. Sure. So, doing a lot of nose breathing, trying to stay physically active all day is a big thing to me. So, you know, from the moment I get out of bed till till the moment I go back to sleep, I try never to sit down. So I I rarely do something we're both doing right now.
Dean Karnazes:I rarely sit down. I have my, you know, my desk at I write on my book standing up. I'm bouncing around on my toes. I have this, body weight HIIT training routine. It's about 12 or 14 minutes that I do constantly throughout the day.
Dean Karnazes:So, you know, it's just body weight. It's push ups, pull ups, dips, chair dips, you know, sit ups, burpees. And I'm I'm cycling, you know, like that throughout the course of the day.
Justin Metzler:Cool. Do you feel like you kind of need that to, like, supplement your life, or is that just as a as a human, or do you feel like they're you're doing that for training? Like, every hour, you're saying, I'm gonna take 12 to 14 minutes to do this to to improve my physical capacity to run a race, or is it like I need to do this to feel like I'm more productive in the day or I'm gonna be able to write more paragraphs of my book or whatever?
Dean Karnazes:That's such a good question. I mean, it's pretty insightful. I I don't know. I've I've thought that myself. I thought, you know, are you are you is it vanity?
Dean Karnazes:Like, do you just wanna look ripped? Not really. No. Is it yeah. Come on.
Dean Karnazes:An ultra marathoner doesn't mean need to be doing sets of push ups and pull ups. I mean, most of us were marathoners are pretty skinny up, you know, their upper body. I just feel compelled to do it. Mhmm. Yeah.
Dean Karnazes:I just feel like it makes me more complete
Justin Metzler:Yeah.
Dean Karnazes:Like a better animal. Like, I'm trying to be the best animal I can be, physically, and I think that, to do that, we need to work our body.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Yeah. I I can completely relate on a, I think, a different scale because we're all wired differently. Like, if I'm not doing what would probably be cons you know, cons showed as an extreme training day to an average person, I feel like I've got this compulsion or, like, an itch that needs to be scratched. And if I haven't ridden 3 or 4 hours in the mountains that day or done a 10 mile threshold run or whatever, like, I just feel unlike myself.
Justin Metzler:And I think for lifelong endurance athletes, which if you've been doing this 30 years, I've been doing it my whole life, that's just part of the the DNA. It's part of the wiring, and you need that just like you need a glass of water in the morning or a cup of coffee. You know? So I I totally can relate. That training is is very cool.
Justin Metzler:What setbacks did you have along the way maybe in terms of injury or something like that? Because that's something I'm going through a little bit now. And, yeah, it's I can imagine that if you're running 150 mile weeks and multiple marathons in a row, there had to be 1 or 2 injuries along the way.
Dean Karnazes:Knock on wood. Really? I've never had an injury. Yeah. I've never had an overuse injury.
Dean Karnazes:No. I, I I can't comment on injuries. People ask me about injuries all the time, but I've never had one. So I I don't feel like I can speak from a place of authenticity.
Justin Metzler:Sure. What do you put that down to? Why do you think you've been so resilient?
Dean Karnazes:I think the cross training is really important. I don't just run. Sure. I think that hereditary, you know, your your your biomechanics, your alignment, you know, is hereditary. So it's, you know, you kind of inherit these things.
Dean Karnazes:They say one of the best things you can do as a long distance runner is to choose your parents well. Sure. So maybe you just didn't do a good job.
Justin Metzler:I think cardiovascularly, I picked amazingly. Yeah. Peripherally, maybe, or musculoskeletally, I probably could have improved in that department. Yeah. But,
Dean Karnazes:I'm a I I was I was telling you earlier, I'm a 100% Greek.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Sure.
Dean Karnazes:And my dad, you know, insists we're from the same village as Fidi Pidis, you know, the original Greek marathoner. I always tell him, dad, we grew up in LA. Like, what village in the hills of Greece are you talking about? I mean, we're from California.
Justin Metzler:You got that deep lineage. It goes way it goes super deep. So no. That's cool. I mean, I think if you're just blessed with that, that that could be your super power.
Justin Metzler:That could be your talent above all else. Like, the ability to just continuously stack training, that that is what gets people where they where they wanna go. I mean, that was me for 10 years of my career. It was like, never injured. But, yeah, interesting.
Justin Metzler:I'm you mentioned the cross training. What in addition to maybe that, like, body weight, you know, circuit that you're doing, what what other cross training things are you doing to keep yourself busy?
Dean Karnazes:I I, you know, I get in the gym once in a while, so I do some heavier weights. Sure. But other than that, it's it's just body weight. I I mean, I really believe that you don't need weights. I mean, if anyone is to get down and do 50 or 60, knuckle push ups, you'd be exhausted.
Dean Karnazes:Most people can't do it. I mean, you don't need much more than that. The next day, your pecs are gonna be burning. So, I just I really believe in body weight. The only times I've really strained muscles in my upper body is when I'm lifting heavier weights.
Dean Karnazes:Sure. Occasionally, I go into the gym Yeah. And I and I really push the weight around. I mean, it's like I put on I stack up enough weight that I can only do 2 or 3 reps. There's a lot of grunting involved.
Dean Karnazes:But,
Justin Metzler:I That's the way to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Very cool.
Justin Metzler:I I'm the one of the reasons I asked that is, you know, with my background in triathlon, like, I saw in your results list swimming across the San Francisco Bay. You mentioned growing up in, or, you know, having your career in San Francisco. Are you much of a swimmer, and what was the impetus to swim across the Bay?
Dean Karnazes:Yeah. I mean, I grew up in Southern California. So, I mean, I grew up surfing. From the time I can remember, I was surfing. And then it was junior lifeguards, so I'm very comfortable in the water, especially in big waves.
Dean Karnazes:Currents don't bother me. Swimming across the San Francisco Bay, you know, is it's pretty intense. But I have to be honest, I I wore a 5 3. I wore a wetsuit. You know?
Dean Karnazes:And come on. It's you got a little buoyancy. And I was just trying to stay mid pack because I've seen some fish. I windsurf as well. I've seen some big fish in the San Francisco Bay, so I didn't wanna break out.
Dean Karnazes:I wanna stay surrounded by a lot of other swimmers just in case. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Totally.
Dean Karnazes:No. But I I mean, I've done triathlons. I've done Xterras. I've done 24 mountain bikes. I did this one event called the outdoor world championships, which was in Hood River, Oregon, which was, like, multi discipline.
Dean Karnazes:It was running, rock climbing. I also climb a bit, mountain biking, windsurfing. So I I just love outdoor sports.
Justin Metzler:That's why you don't get injured. You just got this versatile you're just like a multi sport athlete to the max. You know? That's that's really amazing. Cool.
Justin Metzler:I wanna transition a little bit into the mental side of all of these endurance challenges because I think all endurance athletes, whether you're running a 5 k and just getting into it or doing a 70.3 or a regular marathon or even getting into an ultra marathon, like, during a 100 mile ultra race or something even larger, 200 miles, 350 miles, how are you either truncating that and segmenting it, or how are you just staying present in each mile? How does that process work for you?
Dean Karnazes:I think that's the key is staying present. You know, people say to me a lot, you know, what do you think about when it gets tough? And I think thinking is the problem. I think that just do. So, when I hit the wall, you know, the quote, unquote wall, I mean, what I really try to do is not to think about anything.
Dean Karnazes:Put on the blinders to the next aid station or, you know, the next mile mark or whatever. Don't reflect on the past. Just think about one thing, taking my next footstep to the best of my ability. Sure. And then my next footstep to the best of my ability.
Dean Karnazes:And it takes some discipline. Right? Our our minds are so active. I mean, even now as we're talking, we have a one on one conversation. You're thinking about what's the next question?
Dean Karnazes:What's your do I turn off the the light at home? Whatever. So to really focus on your next footstep, you you have to be present, and you have to pull your mind into that place. And I can do that for 8 or 9 hours sometimes, especially in these longer runs where I'm just thinking about one thing, next footstep, next footstep. I'm not thinking how much further I've gotta go.
Dean Karnazes:You know, in an Ironman, you know you know it's ahead of you. Right? There's there's no mystery in this. But when you're suffering, you know, you're just looking for an out. Like, you know, where where's the next aid station?
Dean Karnazes:Where where's you know, when's the next hash mark gonna come? Whatever. If you can just tune out of that, your body is really amazing. And the human body is capable of so much more than I think we understand, but we have these self conceived limitations we place on ourself. And if we could just move out of the way of that, we can keep going.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Absolutely. Is there are you trying to skew I mean, you said you're you're not really thinking about anything. You're just trying to stay focused. Is there anything that you find yourself gravitating towards if you do to combat maybe, like, a negative emotion?
Justin Metzler:If you start if you're you're at mile 30 of a 100 mile ultra race and you think, there's no way I'm getting through 70 miles. Is there, like, a combative force? Are you just trying to get back to neutral, like, combative positive force?
Dean Karnazes:You know, I have to say, I think experience helps a lot because I know how bad it's been before. And so now when it gets to that place, I kinda celebrate. I'm like, sure. This is this is fucking miserable. Have you ever been this miserable before?
Dean Karnazes:No. Right on. This is the most miserable you've ever been. Like, this is horrible. Like, I've never felt this horrible.
Dean Karnazes:Sure. And and then and there's a great thrill if you can make the reach the finish line. Like, I overcame that. So Totally. The next time this happens, you realize I I've been here before.
Dean Karnazes:I got through it. You can probably get through it again.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I was seeing something the other day that kinda, like, resonated with me and that, like, the human brain and the human body is programmed to seek comfort. And the min you know, the minute you're constantly trying to seek that comfort, you're just always going towards that.
Justin Metzler:But the the celebration is in that hard moment when you kinda get your ass kicked and you are faced with a demon that you maybe haven't been faced with before, and you either, you know, take it head on or you kind of fall back into the maybe more comfortable area. So it's cool to hear that you, like, are embracing that moment, pretty intensely.
Dean Karnazes:And there's a quote in my in my first book. There's magic in misery, and I think every endurance athlete understands this. I mean, we're when we're suffering and in pain, we're more alive than we are any other time.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I I find this especially in my training. I find it a little bit less so in the races.
Justin Metzler:I think maybe it's just because what I'm doing in professional triathlon, like, it's it's a very, like, at this point, especially, it's a very mano y mano type thing, trying to get a win or try to get on a podium, and I don't that's not my favorite part about it. My favorite part is going out into the mountains and pushing myself and finding that edge and and that limit. And so, yeah, that's, like, a really cool, a cool thing. I think one thing I've been thinking about quite a lot is as I get older, it takes maybe a little bit more to stimulate and scratch an itch of
Dean Karnazes:maybe thrill. As you get older.
Justin Metzler:I've been doing this 15 years.
Dean Karnazes:Every year. You look young. You look
Justin Metzler:I'm 31, so I'm definitely not I'm definitely not trying to paint a picture of, of me being elderly or anything like that. But I should go
Dean Karnazes:a lot of good years ahead of you. Come on.
Justin Metzler:That's good to hear. Yeah. I'm curious to hear whether or not, for me, it's I wanna push it 1 mile an hour faster on a downhill. I wanna go 10 watts more. I wanna be able to go an extra mile.
Justin Metzler:For you now having done this for 30 years, are you still searching for another thrill, another level, another bigger thing to get you that that feeling?
Dean Karnazes:Yeah. I mean, I still the the thing with, triathlons versus ultramarathons, you know, triathlons are pretty quantifiable. Like you said, you you kinda know most courses are relatively manageable. You know, you you're looking at your watch a lot. Where with an ultramarathon, there's so many variables.
Dean Karnazes:There's weather. There's terrain. There's climbing. Yeah. There's so many different factors that, you know, you can't compare a 50 mile race with another 50 mile race.
Dean Karnazes:You can't compare Badwater with another 135 mile race because Badwater's across Death Valley in the middle of summer.
Justin Metzler:Sure.
Dean Karnazes:So, I enter I jump into races all the time. Probably not a good idea, but, you know, jumping in races that are a 100 kilometers kinda thing and just go for it and just see how it it it ends up. And like I said, I'm I'm living most of the time now in Greece, and there's just a whole another, set of ultra marathons that I that are so fantastic. And it it's just a different mentality than a triathlon. It's it's you know, you're gonna go through historic places.
Dean Karnazes:There's gonna be climbing. You know, there's there's wind. You don't have you know, there's Sure. There's all kinds of elements that come, you know, contrive to to stop you also to be fantastic. So Yeah.
Dean Karnazes:Ultramarathoning to me is is just a different sort of challenge. And I still run regular marathons, especially now half marathons even where I'm like, okay. Come on. You gotta break yeah. I don't care how tough this course is.
Dean Karnazes:You gotta break 2 hours. You cannot go yeah. So, I mean, yeah, when when when I get into the marathon distance, I'm still looking at my watch a little bit more than usual and, pushing a little bit harder in that regard. It's more about competition than just, you know, pure excitement of something new.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. I think that's that's an important thing, and it's cool to hear the amount of variety that you are still exposing yourself to. It's not like you're just pigeoning hole pigeonholing yourself into I'm only doing a 100 mile races or I'm only doing marathons or something because I think that's when you get a little bit burned out and you don't necessarily have that ability to say, oh, okay. I'm trying to get something different out of a 100 mile race versus a a marathon. And I think that's maybe where some endurance athletes maybe get it a little bit wrong, probably myself included, where it's like, okay.
Justin Metzler:Here's my year. It's been the same year more or less for the last 10 years. I'm either doing half Ironmans or Ironmans. The challenge is the same. The courses are the same.
Justin Metzler:The goal is the same. You just get a little bit tired of doing the same thing over and over and over. Whereas if you can do it differently, that's probably, a big part of the longevity.
Dean Karnazes:Yeah. I mean, I've run-in all 7 continents twice, and I'm hoping to do a 3rd round. So, I mean, I've run a marathon to the South Pole. I mean, it's so much different than triathlon world. I mean Sure.
Dean Karnazes:You know, venturing to Antarctica to run a marathon is so different than going to Coeur d'Alene or Sure. You you know what I'm saying? It's it's a different kind of world. And within ultramarathon, I mean, there's there's so many new challenges. I I still am excited about taking on, not just races, but, like, I wanna, run, from the lowest point on earth to the highest point on earth.
Dean Karnazes:So the Badwater ultramarathon's from the lowest point in the western hemisphere, which is Badwater, to the highest point in the contiguous US, which is Mount Whitney. I wanna do the same thing, but going from the lowest point on earth to the highest point on earth. Wow. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:And what's the highest point on earth?
Dean Karnazes:Think about that question.
Justin Metzler:Everest?
Dean Karnazes:Is it Everest? Of course.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So and then what's the lowest point?
Dean Karnazes:It's the Dead Sea in Jordan.
Justin Metzler:Dead Sea. Yeah. Wow. And that has to be thousands of miles.
Dean Karnazes:It's about 5,000 one way and about 3,000 the other. So when the most direct route goes through Iraq and Iran
Justin Metzler:Yeah.
Dean Karnazes:And, you know, the US State Department saying, no, Dean. You're not going through these countries. So the northern route is through the stand, like, through Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Kazakhstan. That's a longer route.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Yeah. And you're talking about 2,000 miles. It's not like, you know, a little parkrun. Yeah.
Dean Karnazes:And, you know, there's only a certain window you can arrive on on Everest to climb it. Sure. I guess the good and the bad news is that window's increasing with, you know, global climate change. So, yeah, you've got a bigger window, but you gotta arrive within a certain time frame
Justin Metzler:Sure.
Dean Karnazes:To be able to get to the top. So
Justin Metzler:How much of these endurance challenges because I I can see you lighting up when you're talking about some of these things, and that's inspiring to see and it's really cool. There's a physical component to these, which is just obviously being prepared physically, mentally to run 5,000 miles or to run even a 100 miles or whatever it might be, but there has to be such a intense planning and logistical side of this. Do you embrace that as well? Is that a part that you like dealing with the US State Department on, or is that a bit of a nuisance?
Dean Karnazes:No. I I like it all. I mean, it adds another dimension. I'm Yeah. You know, like you said, I'm a business guy, and, I I like new challenges both physically and, you know, pushing my comfort zone and having to learn new skill sets and, navigate, you know, through, different agencies and so forth.
Dean Karnazes:I mean, it's it's a little bureaucratic, but, in the end, I I think I'd you know, my approach is is so out of the box. You know, when I come to the state department and say, hey. I wanna run through Iran. Like, hold it. We've never had that request before.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Totally.
Dean Karnazes:But, you know, the other ironic thing is that I've mentioned this, on various podcasts, and there's a huge running community, especially in Iran, that has said, no. You're not going around our country. We're gonna meet you at the border. We're gonna surround you with a 100 runners. We're gonna put you up every night.
Dean Karnazes:Yeah. We run just like you. We want you coming through our country.
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Dean Karnazes:Yeah. I mean, you know, runners are supportive people, I think, in general, and, it's we're kinda kindred spirits. Right? I mean, shared suffering brings people together. So we we know what it's like to suffer, and we we support each other.
Justin Metzler:Yeah.
Dean Karnazes:And yeah. No. I mean, across the world, there are runners. I mean, it's it's a universality that we all share. Yeah.
Dean Karnazes:There's so many things in this world that divide us. Right? The color of our skin, the god we worship, our language, but running, unites us. It's one thing that brings us together because we all do it the same way. We put one foot in front of the other, and we run.
Dean Karnazes:So even if people don't speak the same language, even if their socioeconomic level is nowhere close to mine in either direction, when When we start running, we're equal. We're the same. Yeah. Totally.
Justin Metzler:That's that's very cool. And I would love one day to transition into a little bit of that because I've been all over the world doing triathlons, and I would love to experience it through a different light. And people always say that I'm sure you feel similarly, like, traveling for a race or traveling for event isn't necessarily tourism. If you're there to do a job or to do a race or to compete, your focus is on that. And I think from the outsider's perspective, that experience, they might feel like you're devaluing the experience of going to Asia or going to Africa or whatever.
Justin Metzler:But I always defended it at least from my own perspective that I saw it through the way the only way I would have wanted to see it. Do you feel similarly when you go to a different continent and a a new place?
Dean Karnazes:I do. And it's so funny you bring that up because that dynamic, I think, is unique to endurance athletes. You know, when we travel somewhere, especially if we have an event in front of us, you know, it's easier if you just show up, do the event, and then you have a couple weeks on the back end to kinda enjoy the recovery and tour or whatever. But it's always in the back of your mind 247. Like, you know, I gotta I gotta do this.
Dean Karnazes:This race is coming up. I gotta I gotta get this together. I got my you know, I gotta get this for my sponsor. I gotta get this new pair of shoes, whatever. With triathlons, you know, the equipment itself is just it's a full time job just managing all of that and staying up on all the technology and everything else.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Yeah. 100%. 100%. You mentioned a little bit about, obviously, your business acumen.
Justin Metzler:You're very successful in the business world in San Francisco before you transitioned into running. Once you got your running career established, you started doing this, you started attracting sponsorship and this and that. Did running ever feel like a job to you?
Dean Karnazes:No. It it it hasn't. It still hasn't even after all these all these decades. You know, you hear about a lot from athletes about the the lessons that that, you know, from athletics that translate to business, but there's also lessons from business that translate to athletics, especially my career because, you know, I realized very early on, it it doesn't matter if you're winning the Western States 100, at least back when I was doing it. You get a belt buckle like everyone else.
Dean Karnazes:There's no money in it. How you, you know, how you gonna keep the lights on? How are you gonna put food on the on the table?
Justin Metzler:Sure.
Dean Karnazes:So I realized you gotta do something else to to pay the bills. And if you can merge the 2 together, that's even better.
Justin Metzler:Sure. What were the main points that you focused on to supplement your ability to just run every day as a career even though there wasn't money in it, like you said, but from a prize money perspective or whatever? Was it focusing on sponsorship? Were you immediately thinking I've gotta write a book? What what were the main things that you were focusing on maybe in the early phases?
Dean Karnazes:Yeah. I I, you know, I I've thought about the products I was using myself, and I thought these are the companies I wanna approach because I like their stuff. I'm using it anyway. Yeah. Like Pedialyte.
Dean Karnazes:I don't know if you like, Pedialyte's kinda like a thing now. When I first wrote about it, you know, back in, when I wrote my first book in 1992, no one was using Pedialyte as an as a as a electrolyte fuel for athletes. I mean, it was just for for infants. My daughter had, like, jaundice, and we're giving her Pedialyte, and I thought tastes pretty good to me. Yeah.
Dean Karnazes:Seems like it's gonna work. And so I started you know, I went to Pedialyte, and I said, hey. Let's do some sort of promotional thing. You know, storytelling, I'm I'm I'm Greek. You know, we're storytellers.
Dean Karnazes:I'm from Homer on on, and I thought any anytime someone heard about me running a 100 miles, they were fascinated by it. Yeah. You know, you tell someone I ran a marathon. It nowadays, more people know about it. But before you say run a marathon like I said to a cab driver one time, you know, it it was someone just broke 2 hours in the marathon.
Dean Karnazes:And he said, I can't believe it. That's so fast. That's incredible. How far is the marathon? Didn't even know.
Dean Karnazes:But when you say, hey. I just ran a 100 miles, All of a sudden, they get it. Like, oh my god. Tell me about that. So I thought if you can if you can tell this story and if it can inspire people and and keep someone's interest, you know, maybe a book would be, something it would sell.
Dean Karnazes:And my first book was like, I thought if I could give it to 10 of my buddies, you know, if I give it away, I'd be lucky, and then it sold millions of copies.
Justin Metzler:That's amazing. I actually I literally have it written down in my show notes here saying that it's part of the professional athlete's job to be a storyteller. I believe that firmly. And so I think you've done you've lit quite literally written the book on, how to tell a story, how to get people engaged, how to get people to understand, yeah, what you're going through and why this is unique and why it's something that they should maybe pay attention to. So that's very, inspiring.
Justin Metzler:Did you always were you always on your own? Did you have a team that helped you creatively, or were all the ideas, on the business side yours?
Dean Karnazes:They were all mine. Cool. People think if some people say to me, god, you got an incredible PR agency in this marketing machine. I'm like, you're looking at you know? No.
Dean Karnazes:I I, you know, I I was with a couple agencies like CAA. I don't know if these talent agencies, they handle, like, big name athletes. They so mismanaged me. They they don't get our world. Now now they might more so, you know, with the growth of endurance sports.
Justin Metzler:Sure.
Dean Karnazes:But when I was back with them, you know, they they knew how to promote a basketball player, how to promote a, you know, a football player. It was pretty straightforward. This guy is doing a 100 mile race. He's like, what do we do with this guy? Like, there's we don't even know how to put this together.
Dean Karnazes:So, yeah, I tried, and it just didn't work.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. I think you know yourself and you know your brand better than anyone else. And I think especially if ultra running, you know, in 2005 was just getting off of the ground in terms of storytelling and publicity, there's probably no one else is gonna no agency is gonna understand how to market that.
Dean Karnazes:Yeah.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Very cool. I wanna talk a little bit more about the books. So you, you know, you said New York Times I I mentioned New York Times best selling author. You sold millions of copies.
Justin Metzler:How many books have you written now?
Dean Karnazes:I've written 5, and I've coauthored 2. Very cool. Very cool.
Justin Metzler:Did that process get easier or harder the more books that you've written?
Dean Karnazes:It got harder because I realized what a shitty writer I was. You know, I I I mean, my mom used to say to me that, you know, the the the best writers are the best, readers. So you gotta read a lot to really be a good writer. And, you know, when you're spending 6, 7 hours a day training, when do you read? Sure.
Dean Karnazes:So I started listening to audiobooks. I probably have 500 audiobooks in my playlist, and I'd go running and listen to these books. And people say, it's not really authentic. It's you know, you're listening to it. But I remind them, like, the the first words were not written.
Dean Karnazes:Like, when Homer wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey, you know, about Achilles and all these stories, these were oral traditions. So these were passed down orally. They weren't written down. So I don't think there's anything inauthentic about an audiobook. In fact, when I read a book and I listen to it, I have 2 different perspectives, which helps my writing.
Dean Karnazes:So, my writing has gotten tougher because I, I'm a tougher critic now, and I hold myself to higher standard. But it's also gotten better. You know, it's gotten better by that process.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. That's cool. I I would love to get into a bit of writing. I feel like it would be hard for me, like I said, because my attention span, I always need to feel like I'm doing something. So maybe I'm gonna have to steal the 12 to 14 minute, hit routine to break it up a little bit.
Justin Metzler:45 minutes of writing, 15 minutes of hit, good to go. Yeah.
Dean Karnazes:And, I mean, you know, when you're doing your runs I I don't do it when you're cycling. But when you're doing your running, think about, you know, what would I write about? How would I, like, how would I start a book? Sure. You know, you you watch enough movies.
Dean Karnazes:What makes an exciting start? I mean, for me, the first sentence that I write has gotta grab someone. K? If you don't grab them in the first sentence and I read so many books, unfortunately, by other endurance athletes where the first sentence is kinda kinda cliche. So I'm always looking to craft a a first sentence that's very impactful.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Do you feel like that's becoming harder with a new generation of people who are just wanting Instagram, TikTok, 30 second reads, short YouTube videos? Do you feel like books are harder to get people's attention? Is it harder to get a 20 to 40 year old person now to read a book than it maybe it was 20 years ago?
Dean Karnazes:It's funny you mentioned that because it became that way with when, you know, when social media first started taking off, it was really hard to sell books. Like, bookseller booksellers are struggling. You saw Barnes and Noble went out of business, but it's come full circle. Now I have I have more kids. I went teenage kids to pick up my first book, and they're like, oh god.
Dean Karnazes:I couldn't put that down. I read it in 1 night. That was brilliant. So I think more people are it's kind of a backlash to this, you know, Instagram society where, you know, it's 5 well, I think you have 5 seconds to capture someone's interest on Instagram or else they're gonna,
Justin Metzler:you know, flip to the
Dean Karnazes:next the next reel. But I think I'm selling more books than ever now, and I think it's just a backlash to that.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Yeah. There I mean, like everything in life, there's gonna be some cyclical nature to it where there's gonna be a dip where people only want short form content, and then people are gonna realize that's probably pretty shallow and isn't giving you the fulfillment that maybe a true story would. And I think that's where something like a book or a long form article or a magazine might make a bit of a, a resurgence. And if you're already seeing that now, I think that's only good for the betterment of society, endurance sports specifically.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. I'm curious to hear more about what you're excited about in the future. What what do you have coming up, and what is kind of getting you getting you out of bed in the morning?
Dean Karnazes:You know, this this this idea of running from the lowest point to the highest point, and I've got a partner in crime to to do this with me now. So, that's it's that's been very helpful to, you know, reinspire me because it's it's difficult to pull these things off. So, like, having these long term goals in place, but also, you know, having like, there's a a 10 k or a half marathon, this coming weekend, in Frisco, and I just happen to be in town. Just someone just jump into it and run it. You know?
Dean Karnazes:So some short term fun things that are just, you know, spur of the moment, spontaneous, as well as some long term planning. You know, another book, all kinds of things. I mean, I started this, running touring company called Greek Running Tours. I've noticed a big trend is people like, athletes wanna go somewhere, and they don't wanna just get in a tour bus or take a guided tour. They wanna actually run.
Dean Karnazes:Sure. So it's a way to combine and I'm saying running. I mean, it's it's jogging. Like, you jog around Athens. You know, there you stop at historical places or cultural moments.
Dean Karnazes:But it's a way to tour on foot, and you kind of feel like you, you know, you earned your dinner that night. You earned your glass of wine. Yeah. So
Justin Metzler:the best that's the absolute best way. I say that, and that's part of what I was alluding to before where my experience in seeing a city, if I go to Norway for 2 weeks, I'm exploring the city by doing a 10 mile run jogging around. I'm exploring the city by riding my bike 60 miles or whatever it might be. That's the most fulfilling way to see a place and whatever. So that's again, businessman, you know what you're doing.
Dean Karnazes:Yeah. Food tourism. Yeah. No. No.
Dean Karnazes:Check out Greek running tours. You had to come over. I mean, it's Yeah. The tours are great, and I mean, there's massage services at night. It's world class food.
Dean Karnazes:I mean, it's it's it's running it's touring. It's exactly what you just described.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Yeah. You mentioned your partner who's in the room with us today. I'm curious to hear a little bit about, like, your guys' dynamic training together. Do you train together?
Justin Metzler:How does that how does that work? Because I've got my perspective. I've mentioned it on this podcast because my wife is also a professional triathlete, and so we we have our own dynamic. But I'm curious to hear what yours is like.
Dean Karnazes:I hope your wife is gentler than mine. She's a a hard ass. Yeah. And she rides me pretty good. But she's a great coach.
Dean Karnazes:She's a really great coach. She leads by example. Usually, an example I can't follow, but I try my best. But it's it's really wonderful to be running with a female athlete, that is so far superior to me. I mean, you know, I'm a little bit older.
Dean Karnazes:I'll say that. But, her ability and her strength, astounds me, and it's inspirational to see someone running down a trail. I mean, I used to bound down trails. There was so much joy in that. And now it's kinda like, oh, oh.
Justin Metzler:And to
Dean Karnazes:see her just, you know, flying down a trail, it it brings it just reinvigorates me.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah. That's really cool. We, we've been together for 10 years now, and, we've kind of, like, tried to find that balance of training together, not training together, you know, this and that.
Justin Metzler:And so it's, I think it's very rewarding when you can go to a race and, you know, travel together and compete together, and also do some training. It's it's part of, yeah, our life, I think, as endurance athletes.
Dean Karnazes:But she's also a great outdoors person.
Justin Metzler:So
Dean Karnazes:Yeah. You know, beyond just our training, you know, we're we're going in bagging 14ers while we're here. Cool. You know, she's running up up. I'm fast hiking, but
Justin Metzler:Nice.
Dean Karnazes:You know, we're we're getting after some adventures, not just, you know, training and training blocks. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. I have, one more question here before I get into I finish the podcast with some rapid fire questions.
Justin Metzler:But is there anyone out there, in endurance sports, in ultra running, even in a different walk of life that is inspiring you right now?
Dean Karnazes:Yeah. I mean, we talked a little bit about Dave Scott. I mean, you know, he's transitioned from being, I I would say, arguably the best triathlete, in history, one of the best, into a business, career. A guy named Tony Hawk. You know, the Olympics are taking place right now.
Dean Karnazes:Yeah. The, you know, the skateboarding's an Olympic sport. Yeah. I remember when Tony Hawk first came on the scene, and I was just like, this guy's gonna make a living riding a skateboard. Like, how how's that gonna work?
Dean Karnazes:You know? He's gonna be bankrupt. Yeah. And he's he's created an incredible brand, whatever. There's a guy named Laird Hamilton, who's a big wave surfer, and he tried to be on the professional surfing circuit.
Dean Karnazes:You know, they're riding small little way. He's a big guy. He's muscular, and they're riding small little waves and doing maneuvers. And he could you know, he's like, I had enough of this. I don't like it.
Dean Karnazes:I just wanna go ride the biggest waves in the world. And he made a complete career out of it and just changed the whole landscape of surfing, you know, into big wave riding. So these kind of guys that, you know, didn't have a a a you know, they they kinda wrote their own playbook, if you will. Yeah. They didn't have a road map to follow, and they created their own and were were successful at it because that they did what they loved.
Justin Metzler:You're one of those guys too. So you gotta you gotta throw yourself into that category. And the the ability to continue evolve as a person, as an athlete, as a businessman, I think is something that you've continuously done and you will continue to do because that's just in your DNA. So, finish the podcast up here with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready?
Dean Karnazes:Scared. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:No. There there at least there there's some some deep thinkers. They don't have to be rapid fire rapid fire, but, yeah, we'll just give it a shot here. So favorite place in the world to run? Oh, Greece.
Justin Metzler:K. Come on. Anywhere in anywhere in particular?
Dean Karnazes:We live in a place called, Pentel, which is, a mountain where all the marble is harvested for the Acropolis. And when you run up to the very top of this mountain, you can see the Bay of Marathon. And that's literally where the Persians invaded Greece in 4 90 BC where the marathon began. And just to look down upon it, it hasn't changed. Incredibly, in 25 100 years, it really hasn't changed that much.
Dean Karnazes:So to be up there and look at that and just think about, you know, the history of the marathon and where it's been, it's just so fascinating to me. Yeah. That's cool.
Justin Metzler:If you can live in the place that is your favorite place to run and you're an ultra runner, that's probably a pretty good start. What was your longest travel day ever?
Dean Karnazes:Probably to Uzbekistan. One time, I traveled, from New York to San Francisco to Seoul, South Korea, I think to Istanbul and then to Uzbekistan. It was, like, a 48 hour total travel
Justin Metzler:Yeah.
Dean Karnazes:With, like, 5 different flights.
Justin Metzler:Gnarly. We've had a couple of those in our years where we're like, okay. We're going to Central China. Let's book the cheapest ticket possible. No.
Dean Karnazes:You do not wanna see it.
Justin Metzler:Six legs on some airline you've never heard of before. So I always ask people who travel a lot for for sport or for work, like, oh, what was your worst day?
Dean Karnazes:Compression tights. Right?
Justin Metzler:I know. God. Yeah. Seriously. What is the oddest thing you've ever seen on the trail?
Dean Karnazes:I was running a race in Australia, and as I'm running, this is like at mile 80 of a 100 mile race. This werewolf looking creature comes out of the bushes. I mean, this dog it was a dog. I think it was a dog. It was massive, massive, and it's galloping.
Dean Karnazes:It's like a a dog galloping at horse speed, and it's coming right for me. I'm like, I'm gonna die. And this thing just leaps over me, and there's this big lizard, like a huge lizard in the tree, and it grabs the lizard in its mouth. Unbelievable. That's crazy.
Dean Karnazes:And then it was gone. I'm like, what just happened?
Justin Metzler:Yeah. You're gonna have that mental memory for, like, the rest of your life. Yeah. That is very cool. Only in Australia too, you're gonna have that one.
Justin Metzler:What's your go to food at an aid station when you've already baulked, like, 10 miles ago?
Dean Karnazes:Oh, chocolate covered espresso beans. Oh. That's
Justin Metzler:a solid move.
Dean Karnazes:Those never wear off.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Yeah. That's a solid move.
Dean Karnazes:Although, I'll say that, baklava, you know, they Sure. That's pretty good.
Justin Metzler:Plenty of sugar in that. That'll get you back. Honey. Yeah. It's good.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Yeah. Honey. Right. What is one essential item that you need with you on every run, and what's one thing that's not essential, but you kinda gotta have it?
Dean Karnazes:I I really pride myself on not having anything, like, not to lean on anything, just to be able to go run with nothing. So, I you know, eyewear nowadays. I mean, I wear eyewear, so maybe a pair of sunglasses and a hat. Yeah. Because, you know, when you're around for 61 years, the sun kinda gets to you, so maybe sun protection.
Justin Metzler:Sure. That's a good answer.
Dean Karnazes:Yeah. And then one thing that I definitely wanna have, I don't know, the, cliff shots, you know, the blocks, the margarita flavor. Whoever invented those deserves a Nobel Prize.
Justin Metzler:I mean,
Dean Karnazes:those are those never get old.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Totally.
Dean Karnazes:Yeah. It's got all the electrolytes and For sure. Margarita flavor. Come on.
Justin Metzler:You gotta get your salt up. That's the key. Yeah. That's the key on the trail. Alright.
Justin Metzler:Last one. The Olympics are going on like you said. When you you might be in your prime now. When you were in your ultramarathon running prime, if you had to choose a different sport, they said no more ultramarathon running, no more running, you have to be a pro in another sport in a year's time, what's your best shot?
Dean Karnazes:I used to play volleyball, but I'm way too short for that. So I would say windsurfing. I used to be a professional windsurfer.
Justin Metzler:Oh, there you go.
Dean Karnazes:So I'm still pretty competitive, and that's probably my best shot is windsurfing.
Justin Metzler:Cool. Yeah. That's awesome. And
Dean Karnazes:what's the other one where there's the puck and the, like, the they push that thing down?
Justin Metzler:Yeah. It's, I know exactly what you're talking about. And they
Dean Karnazes:take the blankets
Justin Metzler:on it? Yeah. Yeah. Totally curling. Curling.
Justin Metzler:It is curling. Yeah. I was trying to think what mine was. I I feel like maybe mine's, like, badminton or or table tennis or something. Because I was, like, the the table tennis and badminton champion You were?
Justin Metzler:Of my, like, little high school. We had the, like, a elite honors PE class. So it was, like, all the best athletes of the school, and I always won the badminton tournament badminton tournament. So maybe
Dean Karnazes:I think you think basketball when you're tall.
Justin Metzler:Like I I don't know. I played a little bit bit of basketball, but I mean, yeah, not anywhere to be a pro. So I think a year's time, the the badminton people are gonna look at me and be like, dude, no shot.
Dean Karnazes:Like, that's what I always say. Pickleball because then, like, man, you really are old.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Pickleball. Pickleball. Yeah. Alright.
Justin Metzler:Well, that's all I got for today. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Pleasure's mine. Yeah. Appreciate it.
Justin Metzler:And have a, great time here in Colorado. Enjoy the
Dean Karnazes:trails. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Absolutely. Take care. That was a great conversation with Dean Karnazes. It was really cool to sort of branch out from, sort of my normal realm and get to know somebody who's a legend in the ultra running community just to not only learn more about ultra running, but just more about the endurance mindset.
Justin Metzler:And there were so many similar similarities between the things he's gone through and what he continues to go through and sort of, what I go through and what all triathletes and endurance athletes go through. So hope you enjoyed that, and, we'll see you in the next episode. Peace.
