Andy Blow: CEO and Founder of Precision Fuel and Hydration, Former Professional Triathlete, Endurance Sports Junkie
Alright. In the studio today, we have Andy Blow who is the CEO and founder of PF and H, Precision Fuel and Hydration, one of our main sponsors of the show. So we are very grateful for him coming on today. We had a awesome conversation, pretty much diving into all things and H business, a little bit of his background as a professional triathlete and sort of the timeline and the origin story of the company. So it's really cool to sort of get that insider information.
Justin Metzler:We also talk quite a lot about, their perspective on sponsoring professional triathletes, making new products, sort of dealing with competitors and growing the business, their goals for the future, and a couple fun rapid fire questions in there as well as always. So enjoy this episode with Andy Blau. Alright. Welcome to another episode of the Endurance Matters podcast. I've got a very special guest on the show today, Andy Blau.
Justin Metzler:He is the CEO and founder of Precision Fuel and Hydration, who happens to be one of the main supporters of the show. So really excited to have Andy on today and, get into the show and ask him a bunch of questions about, precision.
Andy Blow:Welcome to show you. Invite, Justin. Thanks thanks for the invite, mate. Good to be chatting.
Justin Metzler:Absolutely. This is actually our first remote guest as well. Andy's tuning in from London area?
Andy Blow:Not quite. But but I'm about 90 minutes southwest of London in Christchurch in Dorset.
Justin Metzler:Okay. Cool. So UK representation here. I start off the podcast with a hard hitting question. And so the first one that I've got for you today is if you had to collectively decide for the entire and H office, would you rather have coffee, beer, or flow gel on tap in the kitchen?
Andy Blow:No question. I would choose coffee. The productivity with the with the beer would drop off. Fun would probably go up, but productivity would drop off. And, although people work hard here, I don't reckon they work hard enough to need flow gel all day, so we'd go coffee.
Justin Metzler:You gotta keep the carb stores up, and you could do that with with some you know, put a little sugar in the coffee as well, so you're good to go. Maybe a flow gel coffee combination situation. But, yeah, I've got a lot of questions here today. Many, you know, business oriented questions, and then definitely some stuff personal for you. I want you to first maybe start off by telling me how and h came about.
Justin Metzler:Like, what's the origin story for the company?
Andy Blow:Yeah. I was I was like you, I was a triathlete back in but back in the day, I started racing in the nineties when we still wore Speedos and very, very short singlets. Luckily, that's all gone now. But and luckily, there weren't too many photos taken back then, certainly not of me anyway because I wouldn't I wouldn't wanna pull any of those out. But I I tended to you know, I I raced short course for a while.
Andy Blow:I moved up to long course when I realized I wasn't gonna make the team, you know, the teams for the Olympics. And, really, that was a whole new world of discovery for me, particularly around hydration because I raced quite a few long distance triathlons in the UK where the conditions are often obviously cool and performed pretty well and thought that I'd I'd got it dialed. I would then go to hot countries and race because, obviously, a lot of the bigger races, the championship races often end up in the heat. And I would always race terribly, like, fall apart every time it was hot. I used to get really bad cramps.
Andy Blow:I ended up in hospital a couple of times on a drip. I was just in a really, really bad way. At the time, it always seemed like it was something hydration related, but I never really knew what it was. And then it really kinda changed a lot for me after 2003 or 2004 when I went to have a crack at Kona. And I've done pretty well in qualifying in the UK.
Andy Blow:I think I was top 10 in Ironman UK. And I thought I really wanted to go and have a a great race and ended up just an absolute shambles on the Queen k. And a friend of mine who was a doctor talked to me about it afterwards and said, look. I think looking at the photos of you in these races, you've you've always got salt marks on your skin. The the type of things you're reporting are like you're losing a lot of salts and electrolytes.
Andy Blow:And I said, well, I replaced some electrolytes in my drinks, and he had a look at that. And he said, oh, you don't replace it very much. And, anyway, we should get you sweat tested. So he took me to a hospital, got me a sweat test, which I actually had in the cystic fibrosis department because peep if people don't know what cystic fibrosis is, it's a genetic disease. You one of the signs that people with CF exhibit is that they have very, very salty sweat.
Andy Blow:So I had this sweat test, and sure enough, my score turns out to be, like, really, really high. Now I don't have CF, but my friend, the doctor, said to me, actually, this is this is pretty normal. Like, everyone's sweat is a bit different. There's a there's a whole range if you read the medical research literature on this. You happen to be on the really high end.
Andy Blow:You also have a really high sweat rate, and you're going out and trying to exercise really hard for 9 hours in the heat. You know, you are gonna have problems if you don't replace a lot of this salt. And so he did the math for me, helped me build a spreadsheet of what I should replace. And although I was towards the tail end of my career and didn't get loads of opportunities to test it out, when I went and raced in the heat after that, it was it was like magic. It was like night and day difference for me.
Andy Blow:I was replacing more salt. I was wasn't having to drink as much water, and I I sort of thought if I'd only I'd have known about this a few years ago. And and that was where the idea was sort of set for well, maybe this is something that could help other athletes. And I retired from racing, started working as a sports scientist with athletes, and started doing some sweat testing. And that that was kind of where that was kind of where it's all started out.
Andy Blow:There was nothing to do with products and, you know, a supplement business as it were. It was it was all about testing athletes to help advise them on their hydration.
Justin Metzler:Sure. And what were you doing as a career before that point? Did you have a background in sports science at all?
Andy Blow:Yeah. I'd studied sports science in the late 19 nineties at the University of Bath in the UK, which that happened to be where the Great Britain Triathlon team were headquartered when they were training for the 2000 Olympics, the 2004 Olympics. So I'd I'd studied sports science, and I'd I'd my first job out of university was a really good one, actually. I'd I'd got to work for a Formula 1 racing team. So I was working for the Benetton Formula 1 team.
Andy Blow:They were the first team to have a proper human performance center and a sports science setup. So I'd worked for them a little bit. And then subsequently, I'd, I'd left that, and I'd set up my own sort of mini coaching business because, I was trying to be a pro triathlete. But as you well know, making making a living as a pro triathlete is very, very tough, and you don't need to supplement usually. And and so I was kind of doing that thing of of in both camps.
Andy Blow:So I was coaching, doing a bit of sports science, and and racing, and that's when all of this came together.
Justin Metzler:Sure. And so when does the the concept go from an idea to, okay, now I'm gonna actually explore creating products and having something that's, viable to maybe sell or for athletes just to use?
Andy Blow:For me, that was a real steady evolution, actually. The that sweat test that I had, did I then sort of took that when I retired and thought, well, I'm setting up a sports science lab because that's what I was doing. And I bought one of the cystic fibrosis sweat testing units and started to test athletes with it. And it was actually because the business development guy from the company that sold the sweat testing machines reached out to me and said, you kind of who are you and why have you bought one of our machines? Because you're obviously not a CF doctor, and that's who we sell these things to.
Andy Blow:And they were incredibly supportive actually of of me saying, well, if you think I explained to them what I was doing with athletes, and and they seem to think it makes sense. And, of course, they thought this could this be an interesting new market for a piece of technology that we've already got that's doing some going elsewhere. So they sort of sowed the seed of an idea in my head, which was, look, we'll help you to we'll help to construct a business plan and give you a a license, an exclusive license to sell this equipment into the world of sport if you think you can do that and kind of put a bit of weight behind that. And I went along with it, and I said, yeah. Let's let's do it.
Andy Blow:And then at that time, I was a self employed businessman, but I wasn't really running what you'd call a a proper business. It was a a one man band or a 2 person consultancy business. And so I reached out to some friends of mine who I know who I knew who were a bit older, who'd been successful in business and started to get some help and advice. And 1 or 2 of them thought it was a good idea, thought they'd help, and then kinda got sucked along with the idea. And then before you know it, we're forming a company.
Andy Blow:This is 2011 now. And then we're testing athletes, and then athletes are asking us, what should we drink off the back of the sweat test? If we have a sweat test and you tell me this is my electrolyte loss level, what should I drink? And we drew up a massive spreadsheet of all the different sports drinks we could we could think of. We then figured out, well, this isn't very good because we're testing people in America, and they haven't got access to some of the drinks that we've got in the UK and vice versa.
Andy Blow:And so at some point, someone said, why don't we make our own drink? And, of course, the first reaction was like, no way. We're not Gatorade. We're not Lucas Ed. We're how how can we do that?
Andy Blow:And then you start making inquiries. And so all of this just kind of happens and evolves. And it us we started the business in 2011. We produced a very small batch of our own electrolyte drinks and products quite early on, but it wasn't even until, like, 2014 or 2015 that I even got close to going full time in the business. It was a real sort of slow start.
Andy Blow:We were just responding to what what was out there in the market, what people wanted.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Who were the people that you reached out to originally to test the first formulation of products?
Andy Blow:We we did it all on ourselves. We were the guinea pigs. So we did have I was running a sports science lab, which had a little heat chamber in it. And I remember pulling in everyone I knew, local athletes, myself, the guys that were helping start the business, and we were going in the heat chamber doing exercise sessions, testing little formulations of products. We made a few a few home brew ones to start with, and then we found a fantastic manufacturing partner who was willing to kind of do a bit of r and d on the basis that we'd probably place an order with them.
Andy Blow:And then I remember testing, like, literally probably 60 different flavors of of drinks and all sorts of different formulations till we settled on what we wanted.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Was there any, like, horror story moment where you came up with a batch, a home batch, or a home brew, or it was just like, oh, this is totally not it?
Andy Blow:Yeah. To be honest, with the drinks, it wasn't too bad. The first ones that we made ourselves tasted awful, and that was but that was almost kind of expected because we were putting out a lot of electrolytes in them. We didn't really know what we're doing with flavors, so we pretty quickly exhausted our abilities there. If you if you, like, really fast forward a lot of years and, you know, we we didn't start doing fueling products in the business until COVID, you know, 2020, 2021.
Andy Blow:And in that instance, we did go back to the drawing board. Mel, who works for us, went to her kitchen, and we started making gels. And there were some real shockingly bad gels we ate for the first few batches, like gels that you did you couldn't get your spoon into, gels that were a bit crunchy when you ate them in the yeah. But, you know, but trial and error is what it is, and you you get there in the end.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Absolutely. I wanna go back a little bit to the actual, sodium composition testing equipment. So now if you are interested in getting your sodium, composition analyzed, you can go on to the Precision Fuel and, hydration website and find a testing center. So you guys have probably, like, a 100 or more testing centers around the world.
Justin Metzler:Is that testing equipment the same as what it was when you originally started, or has it evolved and changed, to what it is today?
Andy Blow:No. It is ex it's absolutely the same. I mean, the we I say that we've made some very small modifications to the to the equipment over the years, but nothing of of substance. It's essentially the same technology. That test is really, really robust and well proven.
Andy Blow:The big differences that we've made is that we've improved the software and our algorithms that we use to interpret the data because we've got a lot more experience now. So all of the time, we're kinda tinkering with that. So when we test you, we now gather a lot more information that we know is critical to helping us build a hydration plan for you. And our software is a lot better, but the hardware is is, you know, pretty pretty much always as it as it always has been.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Can you break it down for the listener the importance of understanding your sodium composition number? Because I've been having a lot of conversations with athletes lately, and they ask about fuel and hydration. And they just say, you know, 2 scoops of sports drink, or they say, oh, I'm drinking this amount of bottles per hour. They're not actually even considering sodium as a additional very important piece, and arguably, it's maybe one of the most important pieces, if not the most important piece.
Justin Metzler:So can you break it down for the listener exactly why that what that number is and why it's important in endurance sport?
Andy Blow:Yeah. I I I think you touched it on an interesting topic there because for some people, sodium is not all that important at all. And for other people like myself, it was it was it was absolutely critical. It was the piece that was missing from my endurance racing puzzle. And so that what that leads to is that leads to a lot of disagreement because you can definitely talk to some people, and they will categorically say, no.
Andy Blow:You don't need to worry about sodium replacement. You get a little bit in any food you eat, and that's all you need. You talk to someone like me, and I was actually in the early days was guilty of being a bit of an evangelist for everyone taking tons and tons of salt, tons and tons of sodium. Because for me, it was such a game changer that I assumed that this would also be the fact for most other people. In actual fact, I think, first of all, the characteristics you gotta look for if you're likely to find individualizing your sodium replacement important, are are you doing long and hot races?
Andy Blow:You know, if you're if you're only racing relatively short distances and you're you tend to be in cool conditions, you're not someone with a big sweat rate, then potentially, you know, diving into the weeds that individualize your hydration might be a little bit overkill. When you start doing, like, 4, 5, 6 hours plus, when you start racing in the heat and humidity, when you start pushing your body really, really hard, having an understanding of your individual electrolyte losses can be really, really important, even if in actual fact it doesn't change a lot for you. If you're someone who has a low sweat sodium when we test you and you don't sweat a ton, you might not make any adjustments to your hydration strategy, but at least you know that you're already hitting numbers that are in your ballpark. As as I've said a few times already for me, it was an absolute wake up moment because I knew that my problems as an athlete racing were probably hydration related. So what did I do?
Andy Blow:I just dialed up the amount of fluid I was taking in because everything you read and and and the way you think about hydration is it's like more water. But in actual fact, I was I had to increase the salt and reduce the water to get the balance right for myself. And then all of a sudden, I've given my body what it needs and what it wants. I'm replacing adequately what I'm losing it, and it made a difference. So I would say, to summarize, it's like it's on a it's on a sliding scale from irrelevant to total game changer.
Justin Metzler:Yeah.
Andy Blow:But until you know where you are, then you don't know which of those ends of the spectrum you're at.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. For sure. I always recommend athletes go and get the sodium composition test because the fact of the matter is, unless you live in the UK like yourself, a lot of these races are very hot and humid. So that's just the way it is, nowadays with where they're choosing to, you know, locate these, these races. So, yeah, like, you can, like I said, log on to the Precision Fuel and Hydration website and get yourself one of those sodium composition tests.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. They're relatively affordable, and I think that number is valuable for pretty much everyone out there trying to do endurance sports. Sponsor of today's episode is Precision Fuel and Hydration. These guys have been an awesome partner of mine for many years, and I really love the entire product line. They helped me tremendously when it came down to getting my fluid needs, sorted out, getting my electrolyte needs organized, and also just figuring out how many carbs per hour I needed.
Justin Metzler:And they have an entire product line that has a lot of variety and different options for you. So my favorite option from them is the PF30 chew. I sort of take them out of the wrapper and load them into my top tube storage compartment on my bike and just munch on those every 20 or 30 minutes when I'm out doing a hard training session or doing a race. They also have a bunch of sweat experts over there who can help you figure out exactly what your fluid, carbohydrate, and electrolyte needs are. So head on over to pfandh.com.
Justin Metzler:Redeem code big Mets 15. Once again, that's Big Mets 15 via the link provided. I wanna talk more definitely about the business. So, like, talking about, you know, so you talked about the origin story kinda getting up to the point in which you guys had that first sports drink product in 2014, 2015. You started incorporating the gels and stuff.
Justin Metzler:When you started selling products, what was that original product line looking like?
Andy Blow:We we started very simple with 4 products, and that was 4 different strengths of electrolyte drink. So we did a typical sports drink has around 500 milligrams of sodium per liter. So if you picked up a regular Gatorade or a Powerade or, you know, any pretty much any of the original sports drink, they're gonna have about 4 100, 500 milligrams of sodium per liter. Human sweat varies from about 200 to about 2,000 milligrams of sodium per liter. So we decided that we needed to put across that range as much as possible with with products.
Andy Blow:So we did a a product at 250. We did a product at 500. We did 1 at a1000, and we did 1 at 1500. And that was the original lineup that we had. We made them as effervescent tablets because we figured that was when when you're trying to do something precisely, we like the idea of having a a solid dosage form rather than a scoop because, you know, scoops can be accurate, but how many of us really level out and weigh every scoop that we put in?
Andy Blow:You know? And the idea of being more precise was where we can give you a one tablet that goes in a bottle. The other thing we thought was important was that in the early days, especially, we wanted to focus actually on just electrolytes and fluids and not worry about the carbohydrate intake. Because for me, I learned early on that there's this kind of we now call it the 3 levers concept, but there's 3 things you need when you're doing an endurance event. You need carbs, you need water, and you might need sodium.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. And
Andy Blow:it's the amount of those that matters. And if you put all of those things in together in one bottle, it can work for some people some of the time. But I found it way easier in, say, an Ironman race to really segregate and have majority of my bottles with just fluid electrolytes. Then I knew exactly how much fluid exactly how much electrolyte, and then I had my carbs from something else like a gel. And so that was the initial spec for the products.
Andy Blow:It was like, keep it simple, go for a multi strength range, not not multiple different flavors, just infinite strengths. And those 4 products have survived the test of time, really. They that we we've we've launched those in 2011. They're still a cornerstone of our product range now, and they've they've essentially not really changed very much over the time.
Justin Metzler:Sure. It seems as if you guys fast forward to now, looking at the product line, you are, no pun intended, quite precise in the offerings that you have. The range sort of gets the job done, and it doesn't give you a million options to choose from like other brands. Is that on purpose to sort of, like, fall into what you've said here about just really trying to be precise with what your options are?
Andy Blow:Yeah. We've we've definitely tried to be disciplined and constrained in what we offer. It's, you know, as I said, 3 levers, fluid, salt, carbohydrate. That's what you need when you're racing. And if you and plus caffeine, actually.
Andy Blow:So there's there's, like, 3 levers plus an additional, which caffeine is one of the few other things that's got a bit of science be you know, it's got a lot of science behind it to prove it's worth it for athletes. But we wanted to basically create a toolkit, which is gives you those three things in amounts that make sense. So, you know, most carbohydrate recommendations are made in terms of 30, 60, 90 grams of carbs, and we picked up a lot of gels that had 22 grams of carbs or 27 grams of carbs. And we thought, why would you not just make them in increments of 30? So and we also didn't wanna put lots of additional stuff in.
Andy Blow:So our gels don't have any flavoring. They don't have any electrolytes in. They don't have apart from the caffeinated one, they don't have anything other than carbohydrates in. So the idea is keep it simple, teach athletes to know what their numbers are. So, you know and I know that if I said to you just in how many grams of carb, how many liters of fluid, how many milligrams of sodium do you need per hour in an Ironman if it's these conditions?
Andy Blow:You would be able to rattle that off because we spent all that time working with you to to figure that out. And then you've got this toolkit to do it. And all of this is just really a reflection, I guess, selfishly of what I wanted. I should have had. I felt like I should have had as an athlete with someone there to tell me, Andy, if you wanna perform well in Ironman, you need to know these three things.
Andy Blow:And this is what they are, and here's a toolkit to do it. And it I just didn't feel that was around. And and we've tried to we've tried to create a philosophy and a product range and a education system that helps people get that right.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Now looking back on the entire range and the steps it took to create each of these products, what was something that was maybe a little bit harder than expected? Did bring that product to life and maybe something that was easier than expected?
Andy Blow:Yeah. I see. The give bringing a new product to life, you always start with a huge amount of enthusiasm. You think of an idea and you think, oh, yeah. We can do that.
Andy Blow:And then you you go at it hard and you I suppose it's an entrepreneurial spirit. You you don't see what you don't know are the blockers and and the problems. And I would say probably one of the the hardest ones actually to bring to bring out was our was the gel because we we knew that we didn't wanna just make a lot of gels are syrups. You know, they're not actually gelled in some way. Like, to to create a gel, you need to have something which which gives the product substance.
Andy Blow:It gives it a level of structure that's obviously not solid, but it's not liquid. Now a lot of gels just are a a very, condensed syrupy kind of structure. And I never felt like they sit very well on the stomach. They often don't taste as good. And so we went through this process with Mel, who's our she's actually, in our athlete support team, but Mel is an absolutely expert baker and used to run her own coffee stock shop and these kind of things.
Andy Blow:And she used to make jam. And we knew that, you know, you use pectin to set jam, and we had this idea we could use pectin to set gel. And so we we trial and error it, and we got it reasonably good in terms of how we could make it in small batches. But then we went looking for people to help us manufacture this in, like, really large quantities. And Yeah.
Andy Blow:There was a lot of naivety, I think, on our side about how you could take something which you could reliably make in a saucepan and then translate that into how you can make it in really, really large volumes. So we had a whole bunch of problems with early early early work with that. You know? We had to we had lumps in the gels, and we had, like, gels that were really runny and and had no structure. And then we had gels which was had so much structure that you could hardly get them out of the packet, and it was frustrating.
Andy Blow:But we got, you know, we got there. So I reckon that was when we underestimated. Sure. If you ask me about one that was, like, easier than expected, probably absolutely none of them.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. They've
Andy Blow:all been they've all been really hard, but I think as a as a team and as a company, obviously, I've got a whole bunch of, fantastic people that work at and H now, and we are starting to get a lot more understanding of really what it takes to take a product from idea, you know, right through to market. And so it's never easy, but I think at least we have now an understanding of the process we've gotta go through to do it right.
Justin Metzler:Yep. One thing that I've really noticed and admired about Precision, and we've worked with you guys for quite some time, my wife, Jeannie, and I, and we've seen sort of, like, the evolution of your brand in this big takeoff. I would say probably in the last, like, 4 or 5 years, things have really sort of taken off, and maybe you can speak to that a little bit, in a bit. But I'm curious if there was anything that you guys did from a branding perspective or a marketing perspective that really allowed you to take big jumps at one time.
Andy Blow:Yeah. A lot of people have said what exactly what you've said, which is really nice to hear that we've we seem to have really taken off in the last 4 years. And and in some ways, we have because we've we've kind of been on this sort of slightly ex you know, kind of exponential growth path for a little while, you know, with the size of the business almost sort of doubling year on year. And that doesn't really get on anyone's radar while you're tiny, you know, because doubling is still significant, but it's kind of insignificant in the bigger scheme of things when you're tiny anyway. But you get to a certain point where, actually, if you can keep that momentum up, then all of a sudden people are like, wow.
Andy Blow:You're you're kind of everywhere. Yeah. I think there's I think there's 2 2 totally different things, though, that have helped us to get that that presence, really. The first one was that up until 2021, we were just precision hydration, and we were just doing hydration products and sweat testing, which was a growing niche, but it's still a niche within a niche. We were getting asked about fueling all the time, but we weren't ready to take the step to do it.
Andy Blow:COVID and having time back at base, we weren't traveling, and we had to really think about what the next phase of the business looked like meant that we launched the fuel products. And launching those, we we were very fortunate in the over 10 years of having a hydration business. We'd got a loyal customer base, and we got immediate adoption by people that were using the fuel hydration products and the fueling products. And then we've kind of figured out along the way that actually people do tend to use way more fueling products way more regularly than they do hydration. So that was a big that was a big lever that we were able to pull by having a customer base and giving them a product.
Andy Blow:Most of it, I would say, almost everyone who was buying a hydration product from us was buying a gel from someone else. And so there was, like, a big opportunity there for us to say, well, you know, you trust us with your hydration. Maybe maybe you can now trust us with your fueling. The second one is kind of the thing that's, you know, points at it beyond my head is the color stripes, which Sure. Which is like a a thing that came from working.
Andy Blow:My my brother does a lot of our graphics and and design. He's very creative. And early on, we designed the products to have the 4 original hydration products for green for 250, yellow for 500, orange for a 1000, and purple for 1500. And they sort of the colors get a little bit more darker and intense as you go through, and that was deliberate. But we'd never used it as part of the brand.
Andy Blow:They were just colors. And then we put I don't really even remember exactly how it happened, but we but we put the color bands on a hat. And then all of a sudden, like, everybody wanted the hat, everyone that we met, and we're like, this is something. If people want it and then we started to incorporate it in more places, then it became part of the logo eventually. And now I think, you know, I actually had a I literally had a tear in my eye at Kona this year because I stood in in transition area, like, looking around at the bikes on race morning.
Andy Blow:And, like, I couldn't look anywhere without seeing those bottles with the and I was like, wow. You know, we've we've arrived here now. If there was a bottle count, I think we'd have won it. Or, certainly, we have in terms of being noticeable. And so, yeah, it's with a lot of pride that we see the color stripes around, and I think they are just pretty unique.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. For sure. I mean, it's very clear that you guys have spent it's great that the origination of the company came from just having a rock solid product line. It's obviously clear that you guys put so much time and effort into ensuring that the products are, like, ultra world class leading. At this point, do you feel like where is the energy going?
Justin Metzler:Is the energy going into refining or creating new products, or is it going into, okay. We've got a great product line. Let's leave it at that. We just need to push marketing as hard as we can.
Andy Blow:All throughout the the journey of this business, the emphasis has never been fully on the products. The products are a tool. What we're here to do is help athletes learn how to fuel and hydrate and perform at their best. And I think increasingly now I do feel like we we're never gonna have a complete product line. We're never gonna draw a line in the sand and say, we're stopping.
Andy Blow:We're not gonna innovate anymore, but we feel like we've got a really broad product range within this this niche of fuel and hydration when you're exercising. And where a huge amount of our energy goes is ongoing education now, finding ways. We're building new online tools like the fuel and hydration planner. We're refining the the, algorithm and the software that sits behind the sweat test. We've hired people with PhDs in the sports science department to help make sure that our the science underpins our marketing is spot on and that the education we put out there for athletes is spot on.
Andy Blow:And so I would say if you walked into our office and heard what a lot of the conversations that are ongoing are about on a daily basis, it's about finding ways to educate and talk to athletes in the right way so that they get the best out of using our products and have great races. Because ultimately, that that makes you feel good because it makes you feel like you're doing something worthwhile, and it also creates a really virtuous circle. Because if athletes listen to your advice, use your products, have a great race, then, of course, they come back for more, and you get loyal customers. And that's what any business needs to survive.
Justin Metzler:Sure. Yeah. You mentioned, a little bit of the sport of triathlon and maybe even endurance sports as a whole being a little bit of a niche. Do you feel as though for the company to double and then double again and double again, you need to start broadening the web a little bit, either expanding the product line or getting it on store shelves? What does the future look like in order for the company to grow, or are you happy with it just being what it is?
Andy Blow:Yeah. Really good. It's a really good question. I don't think we've ever we always sit down each year and talk about what we'd like to grow to the following year, and it's almost become a bit of a cliche that we're trying to get you know, we're trying to double again and trying to double again. But we're not, you know, we're not venture capital backed.
Andy Blow:So we're not we've not got investors even. You know, we we've bootstrapped this business. And so, actually, we we try to be profitable in a small way, and we just try to reinvest to grow again. And so we're not under pressure to set really strong growth targets. I think the growth it's a bit like the the conversation with athletes around, say, body composition.
Andy Blow:It's like, is there an ideal body fat you need to be to be in this? Like, well, actually, if you do if you don't have anything right, you'll end up in great shape. You know, that's Sure. That's kinda how we think about growth is we try and yeah. We do things that we know will help us grow we think will help us to grow, but what we try and really do is just get our heads down and focus on doing them.
Andy Blow:So to your question about, like, what do we what do we need to do or where could we broaden? You know, I think occupational health is a huge area for us. We already do a little bit in occupational health. So as much as triathletes and ultra runners and cyclists do a lot of sweating, we now work with people who who are up in on roads in Texas, you know, like, in the summer heat, putting down tar and shingle and things like that. We we're working with, a massive company in Australia who fix the railways, you know, and who actually are in the northern territories and are in Queensland in the summer, where it's, you know, Miami like conditions, basically.
Andy Blow:These guys are wearing PPE. They're welding rail tracks, and they're sweating more than you do on a 6 hour bike ride, you know, every single day. And we've put sweat testing in, and we've put products into those environments and had massive success. And that's without really trying too hard. So I kind of feel like there's there's an opportunity there for us as well as just the fact that, yeah, we people in triathlon know us.
Andy Blow:Some people in ultra running now know us. We're getting a little bit more of a foothold in cycling, but I still think we've got a lot to room room to grow in the endurance world as well.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. And one thing I'm hearing that's a common thread is that the motivation is coming from a place of actually trying to help people first. And I think that's really genuine. And it's not really coming from a place of, like, we just have to double our profits. You know?
Justin Metzler:And I think some brands are just trying to meet a bottom line or make investors happy. But if you don't have that outside pressure to, you know, make a certain amount of money and you can do it to actually make a impact that probably goes a long way in the long term. I am curious also to hear your perspective on maybe how much you guys are paying attention to your competitors, what they're doing, and how much that influences your decision making.
Andy Blow:Yeah. Again, that's that's been a philosophy. The philosophy that we follow there has always been the same from the start, is to be really, really aware of what our competitors are doing, but also not to get sucked in or bothered by it. You know, it's kind of I don't wanna be existing in the industry and not know about new developments that our competitors are making. And we we do all the things probably all intelligent brands do.
Andy Blow:We like mystery shop our competitors. We try on competitors' products all the time. We test out our competitors' customer service by phoning them up and by emailing them and talking to them and, you know, not wasting anyone's time, but just, like, investigating, just trying to figure out, like, how how are people talking to their customers about, you know, fueling and hydration and that kind of thing. But it's it's kind of a very secondary to what we do. I'd say most of the time, we've got our blinkers on focused on what we're doing because trends come and go.
Andy Blow:Brands come and go. I've learned over the last 15 years that I thought being a pro triathlete or trying to be a pro triathlete was, like, hard and competitive. And then then I started a business. See, like, oh my god. Business is 10 x.
Andy Blow:It's competitive and hard and and all that sort of stuff. So I also think is is you know, if we focus on what we're doing, that's the most important thing. Keep putting one foot in front of the other. It is like being an athlete. You just you you just put one foot in front of the other every day, small increments, building in the right direction.
Andy Blow:You aren't in control of everything. Things can take you out. Disasters can happen and whatnot. But, fundamentally, if you keep showing up, putting another brick in the wall every day, eventually, you've got something pretty impressive. And I think that's, you know, that's where we wanna be.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Absolutely. One follow-up question I have is kind of a specific question, but I'm curious to hear about your guys' take on, like, distribution of product, something like the direct to consumer people log on to pfnh.com, and they go and get themselves whatever products they want versus going to, like, a secondary retailer like the feed and picking up your product there. Do you guys have a preference? Do you have is there a reason why you feel like you need to stock on places like The Feed?
Justin Metzler:Or, like, walk me through that decision making process.
Andy Blow:Yeah. Early on, we pretty much exclusively sold on our own website, and that was that that was for two reasons. The first one was kind of necessity. We didn't hold a lot of stock. The stock that we had, we wanted to sell at the greatest margin that we could because, if you sell to retailers, obviously, you're selling to retailers at a markup.
Andy Blow:Quite often, they they require payment terms. Small businesses often find things tight. Chasing for money is quite stressful because people don't pay bills. We we actually had a very instructive early interaction with a bike store that we we gave a lot of product to, and they went bust while they hold our hold our products. And at the time, you know, we didn't get anything back.
Andy Blow:And it was a real instruction for us on how business can go if you're not careful. So early on, we were exclusively wanting to sell direct. The other thing was as well, and it still remains a little bit like this, is we we would rather sell direct to people, not not principally actually because the margin is better, but because we have the relationship with the customer then. You know? Our customer service team is world class.
Andy Blow:They are literally the the heart and soul of our business, and I would I want customers to have a great experience. If they don't, if their parcel was late or damaged or whatever, we can deal with it. We and we always take massive pride in doing that. So we wanna have that relationship. So that remains our primary focus, I would say.
Andy Blow:What has happened, though, over the last few years is that we've realized that, a, there's a business opportunity, and, b, there's a lot of people in the endurance sport community who run small businesses, retail shops, this kind of thing, who are starting to reach out to us, and they want to stock our products because our products are getting more well known. And so in the last couple of years, we've got we've got a great guy, Jack, who's joined the team, who's really who's really taken on building some relationships with those retailers and started to introduce the right retailers who can rep our products properly and give give advice like we would give and and onboard those into our community. So I think increasingly as we grow, it's we wanna make the products more available because sometimes it's really useful for you to be able to nip down the street and pick a product on Saturday morning because you've got a race in the afternoon or something like that, which you can't achieve online. But, again, it's not I don't ever want it to be like a a purely financial business based decision. You know, we do business with people that we wanna do business with because we like them, because they're part of our community, and we're part of their community.
Andy Blow:So that's the kind of, you know again, that's the philosophy that underpins when we do business with other people.
Justin Metzler:Sure. And one thing that I mean, even my personal experience having worked with you guys separates you from any other nutrition brand that I know out there is the availability to speak to, sports scientists, Sweat Expert. Talk to me a little bit about the team and why you've alluded to it a little bit, but talk to me a little bit about their role and what that, service is, for people who wanna use it.
Andy Blow:Well, if it's not clear from what I've said already, you know, I started out as a kind of sport scientist coach, someone who wanted to interact and work with athletes. And for the first 7 or 8 years of the business, I was the primary person who would talk to athletes and advise them on how to use our products, and I got a lot back from that experience. Johnny, my business partner, he's also a world class athlete. He was a marathon kayak specialist. He won a silver medal at the world championships, and he came along with me on that journey.
Andy Blow:And he would spend a lot of time, you know, chatting with athletes. So it's kind of in the DNA of the company that's that's what we do. Dave, our marketing director, he always kind of tongue in cheek described himself as, like, the athletic run of the group because he's not really from an endurance background, but he spent 10 plus years in the industry now and can talk the talk and can understand, can help athletes, and he gets a kick out of doing it. So the natural extension when we got big enough is we started to hire other people who had that kind of coaching and teaching outlook. So we've got now we've got a team of 6 or 7 sports scientists.
Andy Blow:We've got another team of 5 people in customer service. Pretty much all of them are either athletes or or have a sports science degree. And so our availability to talk to customers, to talk to professional athletes that we're working with is pretty much unrivaled, and it's pretty much around the clock these days because we've got people who are taking calls for us in Australia, in the US, in the UK. Our goal, as you know, from having worked with us is, like, just if you wanna talk to us on a Sunday, you can talk to us on a Sunday. We'll be there, and we'll we'll debrief with you on that race.
Andy Blow:And, you know, that that's the coverage we're looking for. The latest people that we've hired have been is to try and next level that. So doctor Sam Sheppard was a a lecturer at Liverpool John Moores University in the UK. He's now our head of sports science. He's got an incredible academic record, like a 100 published papers, real expert on carbohydrate metabolism.
Andy Blow:We've hired doctor Lindsey Hunt from the University of Sydney in Australia. He did his entire PhD on sweat rate modelling. So, you know, kind of a perfect fit for us. And then we've got I think everyone in the sports science team pretty much is is doing a, you know, marathon, an Ironman, a half Ironman next year. You know, they they they live it as well.
Andy Blow:So they love getting on calls with athletes every day at work. It's it's what they'd rather be doing.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. It's very cool. You don't have to name names, but I'm curious in your opinion, who at and h has the best job and who has maybe the worst or the hardest job?
Andy Blow:That That is a great question. Who has the best job? Depends what day of the week it is. But, I reckon I mean, I'll be I would probably say in some ways, I I probably do have the best job because I've seen this thing through from start to where it is now. And I've been lucky enough to pick up some absolutely amazing people along the way who are way better at I am than certain things.
Andy Blow:So, you know, it I I I couldn't pass this point without giving a shout to my business partner, Johnny, who came in, you know, as a young guy, worked with me for years, learned a lot from me, I'd like to think, but then has gone on to teach me so much because he is the logistical operational head of the business. The reason that, you know, we can get the parcels that we need to get out the door on time to where they need to be, that we have great relationships with our manufacturers and all that sort of thing is is down to his logistics and operational brain. I would say that he, therefore, a lot of the time, has potentially the worst job in the business because he is he deals with all of the problems that I create. So if we create great demand, he has to fulfill that demand. You know?
Andy Blow:If we if we invent a product and say this is gonna sell really well and produce a load of it and then it doesn't sell, then he's the one who has to warehouse it and figure out where it's gotta go and and deal with it. So, you know, I would say, yeah, poor old Johnny. He's, he might not say the same thing, but I reckon he's got the worst job.
Justin Metzler:He's a good man. Shout out Johnny for sure. Yeah. I am curious as well. You know, you you've mentioned that your company sort of evolved and changed through the pandemic, and I think, like, the entire business world has been a little bit different since then with the, mandate of people coming into the office not being as commonplace, and I think a lot of people are work from home now.
Justin Metzler:How what's, and H's stance on work from home versus having people come into the office and actually be there in person to collaborate, communicate, and, like, make the business run?
Andy Blow:I think we we essentially went entirely the different direction to the rest of the world because you're right. A lot of people started working from home. My wife who works for, a medical charity in the UK, they went from going into the office most of the time to a 100% remote working. We went from obviously a 100% remote working during COVID and then actually went out and found a bigger office, and everyone pretty much is in the office almost every day here. And I think that we do have a bit of hybrid working.
Andy Blow:You know, people definitely work from home from time to time, and we have people who work fully remotely because we have people based in the US. We have people based in Australia, and head offices in the UK. But we're trying to create a culture and an environment where people wanna come to work, and I would say that we've achieved that. We've got we found a fabulous building, like an old barn type building, which is really cool. It's got really big natural light.
Andy Blow:We put a really nice massive kitchen in there so people can come in and cook and have nice meals. We're fortunate to have our warehouse on-site as well. It's not joined, but it's a 50 meter walk between the 2. So we can all get together, and we still all get together at least once a day on a 4 o'clock all hands call when we dial in people from around the world. And and I would say that that culture of being, like, all in and all in one place is something which I've seen it, and I'm impressed by companies that managed to do it remotely.
Andy Blow:But for us, it's about it's about being here.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Absolutely. I feel like is there anything tangible that you've noticed from having that group environment, that team environment? I guess there's not a massive comparison other than to the, you know, year or so during COVID. Is there anything else that you're noticing from, other than to the, you know, year or so during COVID.
Justin Metzler:Is there anything else that you're noticing from just having people collaborate in person that's a big value add?
Andy Blow:It's it's not any one thing. It's loads and loads of little things. If I give you an example, we had so we work with, Lotto Destiny, the pro cycling team, and we work with Victor Campenaerts a lot who's who won us stage in the Tour de France this year. And Victor has been a massively vocal advocate of precision fuel and hydration over the years. We invited him to our office last week and wanted to give him something really special as a one off, you know, like a gift.
Andy Blow:And I said, I was chatting with my brother when we were talking about, wouldn't it be cool if we got one of our gels, one of our products, and, like, set it in a block of clear resin and kind of made him a little trophy? You know, that was like a a unique one off thing. And and we saw our brain. So how can we do it? And we're chatting in the kitchen.
Andy Blow:And then Justin, who's our web developer, he's like he says, oh, I couldn't help overhearing what you're saying, but, actually, I play around with resin quite a lot, make some models and things. I reckon I could have a go at that. And then the net literally the next day, the guy comes in with a gel in a block of perfectly clear resin, and then they're like, wow. Amazing. That would never have happened if you weren't, like, talking about something in the office.
Andy Blow:And that probably is a bit of a a silly example, but I just think that that cross pollination and we've got loads of young people that work here. You know, I'm 46, and I'm one of the older people who works for the business. So having I think maybe once you mature in your career, working remotely a bit more of the time is is fine. When you're young, I certainly got a lot because there's no remote working when I was working at the Formula 1 team or whatever. Having people in, having people together, you learn a lot just from those in those working interactions that otherwise you you don't get through the video screen.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Sponsor of today's episode is Precision Fuel and Hydration. These guys have been an awesome partner of mine for many years, and I really love the entire product line. They helped me tremendously when it came down to getting my fluid needs, sorted out, getting my electrolyte needs organized, and also just figuring out how many carbs per hour I needed. And they have an entire product line that has a lot of variety and different options for you.
Justin Metzler:So my favorite option from them is the 30 chew. I sort of take them out of the wrapper and load them into my top tube storage compartment on my bike and just munch on those every 20 or 30 minutes when I'm out doing a hard training session or doing a race. They also have a bunch of sweat experts over there who can help you figure out exactly what your fluid carbohydrate and electrolyte needs are. So head on over to pfandh.com. Redeem code big Mets 15.
Justin Metzler:Once again, that's big Mets 15 via the link provided. One thing I'm personally very, interested to hear your take on is about your guys' investment into professional triathlon. I can assume that some of your, desire to invest in professional triathletes is because you were once a professional triathlete, and you wanna maybe give back a little bit. But I'm curious to hear what do you, as a CEO or what does and h as a company value in sponsoring professional triathletes?
Andy Blow:Yeah. We definitely, a big part of why we do do that is because having been there myself, I understand that you need sponsors and you need partners that are gonna support you on the journey as an athlete. What we get from working with professional athletes nowadays is the I think one of the biggest things we get back is we get to learn from the coalface of people who are really, really trying as hard as they can to be the best that they can. And if you're willing, like you've been willing over the years, to share with us in minute detail everything that you've eaten, drinking, and drunk in the build up to races, during races, how you felt, how you've performed. We then take that.
Andy Blow:As you know, we we iterate that with you. It's like, well, Justin, we're gonna tweak this a little bit because you're saying, this is how you're feeling. And and then you do that enough times, you know, and you get this trial and error process, and then you build up this massive virtual. And then now we've got a physical database with our case studies of information about what the very best in the world are doing. And the interesting thing about what the best in the world are doing is often it's 1 or 2 steps ahead of even what the science is saying we could or should be doing.
Andy Blow:So I think one of the biggest reasons that we invest in our relationships with those pro athletes is, yeah, we do get a huge amount back from if you you know, I remember when we are helping you try and get around some of these hydration problems, and then you we would get a huge amount of satisfaction in the office when the text came in and just it says, yeah. I've had a great race, and I've got this right. And then it's like, yeah. Because it's a very small part, but you play a small part in that, and you feel that. You know?
Andy Blow:And and you say you get something visceral back. But then beyond that, you've gained a bit of experience, which you can then translate and parlay into maybe how you might develop a new product or how you might improve the algorithm in the online sweat test. I'll give you an ex a direct example of that would be we didn't and we still don't we didn't we still don't routinely recommend athletes drink more than about 1.5 liters per hour in any conditions because it's a lot of fluid. But we have had numerous cases now where we've seen athletes who have required have been required and needed to drink more than that to get through an event, which would have blown my mind. And if you read the science on hydration, you're not gonna find many examples, and you won't find many people who are willing to stick their neck out and say that some athletes would need to drink that much.
Andy Blow:But by actually being there, measuring it, working with athletes, and seeing it in real life, you you do at least have that that kind of mental reset of going, well, yeah, where we thought the limits were, they've gone up a little bit, so we need to be open minded to that. So I think we get I think we just get a lot a lot of of learning back is is probably the main thing.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Absolutely. I know, a specific example. I was working with Chris quite closely to who was one of the is one of the sports scientists, and this was probably 2022. And I had sent him over, like, I think I'm gonna try doing, like, a 135 grams an hour of carb, which at the time was, like, on that high end, and I think 1.8 liters per hour of fluid.
Justin Metzler:And I think he cautioned me, like, yeah, it's on the high side, but go for it. And I I think I won the race or was second or something.
Andy Blow:And I
Justin Metzler:think that was probably a good data point for you guys to be like, oh, well, you know, Justin, he's 80 kilograms and 6 foot 4. Maybe his stomach lining is a bit bigger than the average, pool that we're researching. You know? Exactly. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:So we had a whole conversation around that. I am curious to hear if you guys you know, it seems as though you're getting a lot of information from that particular aspect of the relationship. Is there any specific focus on your athletes winning races? Is there any specific focus on, okay, this this certain athlete needs to be, of certain value when it comes to social media? Like, what is your guys' take on that and, when it, pertains to professional athletes?
Andy Blow:Yeah. That's that's another good question. I mean, Brad, who you know well, who manages the team of athlete ambassadors, Brad has a bit of a a checklist of criteria, I guess, that he looks at. And he will look at he'll always look at how many social media followers someone's got, whether they're what their out and out level of performance is, what their track record's like, whether they appear to be kind of on an upswing in their career, whether they're towards the end of their career or or whatever. I would say, though, there's never like, there's no hard and fast criteria.
Andy Blow:We're a small we're a small business. The thing that matters most to us out of everything is the relationship that we have with the athlete. That I always feel like, you know, if we work with enough athletes closely enough and really do our best and show them that we care about helping them to perform, then they will go into the world, and they will use whatever platforms they've got to speak well about us. And if you try and engineer that too much, then people realize it and people see it. And we all know that there are still in sport and there always will be.
Andy Blow:There are big companies that do big money deals, and they get the very best athletes in the world to, rightly or wrongly, to shout and broadcast about what they do. And that was and that was the old advertising model, and it still exists today. But the level that we operate at, I think, is is to try and build genuine relationships, try and support athletes. We go into every relationship thinking that we wanna be if it works, we wanna be with that athlete at the end of their career Yep. Which is why we have things like what we call the performance programme.
Andy Blow:So before we take on a professional athlete onto a sponsorship contract, we'll work with them for usually a period of about 6 months. They get all the benefits of working with our sports science team. They get all the free products that they need. No money changes hands. Nothing's signed.
Andy Blow:Everyone just works together. And at the end of it, we sit down and we go, did that work? Are we gonna move forward to make this more permanent, or have we tried it and it doesn't work? Because that's okay as well. You're better off doing that than signing someone and then having to sort of pull back or whatever.
Justin Metzler:So I would say,
Andy Blow:you know, you you feel it, basically.
Justin Metzler:Absolutely. I think that's a big difference maker, and it gave me a lot of, like, solace and confidence because, you know, when we started working together on a personal level, I was very successful on the race course, and it made it feel as if they eat the I was prove proving my value. And over the course of the last 18 months when I've had injuries and setbacks, you know, Brad came to me and said, we're gonna support you as long as you continue to race. Through the ups and downs, we were there with you when you were winning triathlons. When you're having a little bit of a hard time with injuries and stuff, we're gonna ride with you now as well.
Justin Metzler:And, obviously, your guys' investment in the podcast has been, monumentally helpful in helping this get off the ground, so we obviously thank you for that. But No.
Andy Blow:We and, yeah, on that, Justin, we we yeah. It's two way. And and, you know, you've always been you've always been a fantastic ambassador for what we do. And so, yeah, that's absolutely why and there's no question in my mind when when you wanted to start the podcast. You know?
Andy Blow:It's like, well, yeah, let's get involved if we can. If we can add value, then let's do it. And, it's great to see how successful it's been.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah. We appreciate it. I have a little game here, an intragame guest intrapodcast game.
Justin Metzler:We did this one time before with Matt Hanson. I've got, I think, like, 6 endurance sport tread like, nutrition specific trends. I just want you to you can elaborate a little bit if you choose, but you can just say, like, hot or not.
Andy Blow:Yeah.
Justin Metzler:You ready? Alright. Number 1. 100 and 50 plus grams of carbohydrates per hour.
Andy Blow:Hot, but not for everyone and potentially dangerous.
Justin Metzler:Ketones.
Andy Blow:Not for me.
Justin Metzler:Caffeine reduction in the week or weeks leading into a race?
Andy Blow:Not for some people.
Justin Metzler:K. A lot of nuance in sports nutrition, I feel like. So maybe this is, tough
Andy Blow:to answer. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:No. It's all good. How about sodium loading prerace? Hot. Carbo loading prerace.
Justin Metzler:And maybe say that one more time. I think you cut out a little bit.
Andy Blow:That is definitely hot.
Justin Metzler:Yep. For sure. Fasted training to become more metabolically dependent on fat as fuel.
Andy Blow:Was hot. Now not hot.
Justin Metzler:It's funny how it goes in ebbs and flows like that. I think, like, 2 years ago, everyone was hitting the fasted low carb training, and now we're all doing a 150 grams an hour. Yeah. It's crazy. But okay.
Justin Metzler:Those that's good answers. I feel like those are really hot topics, in a previous podcast with yeah. Like, I I mentioned Matt Hanson, who's a a professor of exercise science. You know, he touched on some of the things that you were saying as well and, agreed. So I am curious, as a final point here before we get into the rapid fire, how much do you perceive sports nutrition as an impacting factor on the rapid, speed improvements we've seen?
Justin Metzler:Like, you know, Ironman World Championship records are getting broken. Marathon records are getting broken for almost every race. Do you think that that's mostly coming from a nutritional perspective, or do you think it's, an element of maybe training doing different or equipment, stuff like that?
Andy Blow:I I think it's probably if you take triathlon, I reckon there are 3 there's 3 things which are which are mainly pushing it forward, in terms of, like, seriously impactful. I do think nutrition is one of them. I think that increasing carbohydrate consumption per hour and making sure that people aren't blowing up in the later stages of the race, you know, it used to be quite common that people would be really falling apart. That obviously hasn't gone away. But if you say, look at professional cycling where we used to watch the Tour de France and wait for the leader to maybe have a really bad day when he bonked in the mountains, I can't remember the last time that happened because
Justin Metzler:Yeah.
Andy Blow:I think the nutrition intake and the higher amount of carbs per hour in particular is is moving the needle a little bit. I'd say in triathlon, you've got that. You've got the nutrition. I reckon that the the nonstop, you know, progression of aero gains in in the cycling part, that is when I look at what the bike I used to ride and the position I used to ride in, that sort of thing, I genuinely think I was leaving 25, 30 minutes on the table when it came to an Ironman bike bike course easily, and then Super Shoes as well because as someone who still runs, you know, I put on a pair of Alpha 5 threes lately, and I'm like, this is essentially doping. These are
Justin Metzler:Yeah.
Andy Blow:Incredible. You know? And I reckon if you put those three things together, they they they don't explain everything, but they do explain, you know, suddenly fleets are always gonna get more competitive as things get sharper, and I don't wanna take anything away from those amazing however many guys. What is it? Like, 16 guys and then 8 hours in Kona or whatever.
Andy Blow:But I think if you you never get to do it, but if you stripped away that kind of, like if you gave everyone 60 grams an hour, gave them a bike from the nineties and a pair of bin sole racing flats, how many guys would we see under, you know, 8 hours at that point? I think it's gonna thin the field a little bit. So Yeah. They feel to me like and and in marathon running, it's obviously just 2 of the 3. It's the it's the it's the carbohydrate intake, and it's the super shoes.
Andy Blow:Yeah.
Justin Metzler:Absolutely. From a nutrition perspective, how much do you perceive that we have extracted in terms of improving high performance? Do you still feel like there's there's mountain mountains to climb and a lot of barriers to hurdle, or are we kinda getting to that pointy edge of, like, there's not gonna be that much more that we can extract from a sports nutrition perspective?
Andy Blow:I think when people execute it really, really well, I think we understand fundamentally understand largely what people need to do now. I think a lot of the problems are those problems of execution and problems of sort of your body tolerating what you need because we are pushing the the gut and the body to take in more fuel, more fluid and salt sometimes. And the obvious downside to that is GI issues, which can then derail a race. So there's that kind of practical, can I get enough in to meet my needs? And then alongside that, I would say from doing the case study stuff that we do, it's actually really making sure that athletes are getting the numbers they think they're getting and also that they're able to do so efficiently.
Andy Blow:I still think there's a a good amount of room for improvement in how we carry off fluids and electrolytes and carbs on the bike, for example, how we carry them on the run, how we how we dose them. Because you you watch every time there's a t one hundred, I feel like there's a bunch of videos of people, like, failing to pick bottles up at aid stations and slapping them out of volunteers' hands. And, you know, there's gotta be better ways of making sure we've got what we need. We can access it. We can work out how much we've had because we do a lot.
Andy Blow:As you know, we sit down with athletes after a race, and we try and work out how much fluid they had, how much salt they had, how much carbohydrate they had. And we we get better at making really good estimates, but I don't believe that all of the ways that we carry it, the way that we we dose it, are given as the accuracy we need back to then iterate. So I'm I'm always interested, and we've started working on products like we've we've just made a a flask HSC 250 flask with profile designs that goes on the top tube that you put Flowgel in so you can see your Flowgel. You can calculate how much you've had. You're not taking up a bottle cage carrying it.
Andy Blow:And that's a very small step in the right direction, but I think technology you know, do I think we're gonna find, like, another nutrient variant? You know, there's people playing around with different blends of carbohydrate now and things. And and maybe there's marginal gains to be made in some of those areas, but I'm focusing my energy, and we're trying to focus our energy as a team on getting the right amount of what athletes need into their systems and knowing with knowing with confidence that that's what they're taking so that we can iterate it. And I think that's where there's still room for improvement.
Justin Metzler:Cool. Yeah. Very cool. Before we get in the rapid pie fire, giving you the floor to maybe say anything that you're really excited about for the future or maybe anything that we've missed here, in our discussion today in regards to and h?
Andy Blow:I think, overall, as someone who's been in endurance sports, you know, my whole sort of adult life, really, I'm really excited to see all of this. I I think endurance sports are kind of coming together and crossing over a lot more. You know, when I was at Leadville 100 this year, I saw a bunch of triathletes that I knew who are running the 100 miler. I saw triathletes riding the 100 mile mountain bike race. You see, you know, I've been talking to some pro cyclists who are talking about crossing over into Ironman racing.
Andy Blow:And so I'm quite interested in the way that there's a lot more there is a lot more crossover in all of that. And, you know, we've seen it in ultra running in the past because ultra running in ski mountaineering have always had this kind of crossover thing. So I'm I'm interested in more and more exciting events and opportunities coming up because I'm still looking for stuff that I wanna get excited about. You know, I used to do a bit of multi sport adventure racing, and I think that's still on the periphery and in the wings because you gotta learn to do kayaking and things like that. So I I think that, you know, people's creativity around what we're gonna do with the UltraSpace in terms of, you know, more hybrid events.
Andy Blow:You know, these, I think Jan Frodeno is involved, like, the Escrow kind of gravel. I did Xterra years ago. Like, Xterra is still really cool, but wouldn't it be cool to do, like, a a really big gravel based trail run ultra triathlon with a fantastic swim? That kind of thing would get me really excited, and I think I see that kind of stuff starting to happen, which is very cool.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. 100%. I mean, this podcast has opened my my eyes a lot to that because we sort of branch our our net out pretty wide. You know, we've had Dean Karnazes, ultra runner on here. We had Drew Hunter on.
Justin Metzler:We had Alexei Vermulen, who's one of the Leadville contracted athletes for the lifetime series. So, like, my brain's twirling a little bit, so maybe I'll pop into a little Leadville here or something just down the road if you're old.
Andy Blow:I'll put an idea in your I'll put an idea in your head, Justin, because you live in probably the perfect place for it. But we've been talking for ages about organizing a training camp for, like, a bunch of a bunch of athletes who wanna train, who are all willing to train together, but from the elite level of different sports. So we get some triathletes, and we get some ultra runners, and we get some gravel ride. We kind of put them all in a house together for a period in the off season and get them all to train each other's sports and share ideas. And I'd be really I think you could you could you could do some great content from that.
Andy Blow:You could do but you could also learn a lot, I reckon. I think that would be a fun project.
Justin Metzler:Count me in. I'm so in on that. I would love that. Alright. Cool.
Justin Metzler:I've got, 6 rapid fire questions here today. You ready to roll?
Andy Blow:Go for it.
Justin Metzler:Do you prefer headmasterblau or founderblau as your nickname?
Andy Blow:Neither. But I know I know that that came from Brad.
Justin Metzler:I might have had some outside assistance from some Piazza employees here.
Andy Blow:Yeah. Yeah.
Justin Metzler:What's the ideal amount of sodium per hour for someone who knows nothing about anything or about themselves? Just just start.
Andy Blow:Yeah. If it's a long hot race, which is always my reference point because that's where it starts to be impactful, I would go with about 700 to 800 milligrams, per hour, something like that. But Cool. It's, difficult to say.
Justin Metzler:Yep. I for sure. What's your go to pre race breakfast, or what was it when you were racing Ironmans or professionally? And then what, in your opinion, is the ideal pre race breakfast?
Andy Blow:I was always oatmeal, honey, maybe a bagel, and a black coffee. I don't think that's probably far too far off the mark, but something along those lines. Nothing too complicated.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. For sure. Who is your favorite and h sponsored athlete or employee?
Andy Blow:You can't have favorites, can you? It's definitely not Brad then if he's watching, if he ever sees this. Brad, you're not the favorite.
Justin Metzler:Okay. Perfect. That's that's a fine enough answer. I know as a dad, you know, you're not allowed to just pick favorites, but I know you got one.
Andy Blow:Yeah. And I I would say I I tell you who I do have a a kind of a soft spot for if you like is should I say this? I will say this. It's it's Leon Chevalier because Leon is, like, really and I say that just because he's top of mind because we're recording this not really not that long after Kona. And Leon came to us when he did his first, Ironman.
Andy Blow:He was recommended by a good friend, and we sort of helped him with that. And he's just watching him just gradually climb the ladder. And I would still say that Leon is one of the most under the radar, under respected guys in triathlon, but you look at his performances at Ironman World over the last few years. So, yeah, not necessarily I don't have favorites above and others, but I've I've so much respect for that guy. I think they're you know?
Andy Blow:And I'm backing him to go all the way one day.
Justin Metzler:Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Incredibly valuable to your guys' brand. His helmet in Kona was pretty cool, so maybe go sit back and see those, those photos.
Justin Metzler:Alright. Final question here. In 5 years, who's winning the 5 k time trial? You or your son?
Andy Blow:If he's watching Bobby, I reckon I can still I'll still be able to take you, but it'll be close.
Justin Metzler:51 year old versus 15 year old. I'm gonna we're gonna to get the PFNH cameras out and throw that up on YouTube or whatever. I'll hold you to that. Alright.
Andy Blow:Looking forward to it.
Justin Metzler:Well, thanks very much for joining us today. This is a great conversation. Great to catch up, and, appreciate you coming on.
Andy Blow:Yeah. No. Thanks, Justin. And, yeah, really, really glad to see what you're doing with the podcast. It's fantastic.
Andy Blow:Keep it up.
Justin Metzler:Alright. Thanks very much, and we'll catch everyone in the next episode. Peace.
